UM SARUN

DOCUMENTATION CENTER OF CAMBODIA

Photos of Yem Sambath and Um [Uncle] Sarun

An interview with Yim Sambath, female, 57, cousin of Um Sarun, resident of Roka A village, Roka A sub-district, Kang Meas district, Kampong Cham province

and Chhem Chanty, Cousin of Um Sarun and sister of Yim Sambath

13 March 2004

by Ms. Pivoine Beang and Mrs. Sokhym Em

Pivoine:           May I ask you to describe this photo?

Sambath:        Well. Is Rith an alias of Sarun?

Pivoine:           Yes. In his biography, he was named Sarun. I want you to tell us about him and your own personal story.

Sambath:        Let me talk about the younger first. At that time, [Sarun] was the first to join a sub-district Art Performance Group. Later on, he was promoted to the regional level and lastly the zone level, when we were separated. I heard that he was with Uncle Thuch, the chief of the zone.

Pivoine:           Which zone was it?

Sambath:        Zone 203 or 304. We [two] were separated and our whole family did so. Through a brief investigation, I heard that he was imprisoned at Tuol Sleng. That's what I can tell you, since during the Pol Pot time, we were not able to determine why he was treated so. It was the same with my husband. First of all, it was said my husband was kept in the prison. But later on, someone told me that my husband was not killed, but that he was taken to Kruoch Kor, a malaria prone area, where he was believed to have died of this disease. Other news came out from Zone 203 telling the widows of Zone 304 not to be worried as their husbands had not died yet. The last information kept me informed that my husband had been brought from Kruoch Kor to Tuol Sleng.

Pivoine:           So, when were you separated from Sarun?

Sambath:        We were separated since 1974-75 before the fall of Phnom Penh. [I] don't know where he went since his appearance. I always asked for information any co-workers of him. According to them, Rith was still alive. We didn't know for sure. Later on, he was said to be kept at Tuol Sleng. We often ask fortunetellers about the fate of my younger cousin and my husband. Fortunetellers never say no. They always say they are still alive.

Pivoine:           Is your husband alive?

Sambath:        No. [He] disappeared since then.

Pivoine:           When did he disappear?

Sambath:        He was separated since 1976.

Pivoine:           Was he sent to Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        Yes, he was in February 1976. I still remember the month: February 1976, when my son was 9 months old.

Pivoine:           Why he was sent to Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        First, he was imprisoned here on an accusation by the Khmer Rouge that he was holding "White Insignia of Rank" or "Blue Insignia of Rank", [Free Khmer] which I don't know about. When he was imprisoned, I had been in Phnom Penh.

Pivoine:           Where was the prison?

Sambath:        It was a prison in Kruoch Kor.

Pivoine:           Is it in this village?

Sambath:        No, in Prey Chhor district. One of my cousins there told me he had seen my husband being with no chain attached. I heard one night prisoners were transferred to Tuol Sleng. Since then all people detained in Kruoch Kor were disappeared. Fortunetellers tell me he is alive and living abroad. Elders in this village say it's impossible that one is not shown up for ten or twenty years. [I recount] His life before disappearance. He was a sub-district chief. One day when he was aiming a bird with a gun. Unfortunately, the bullet hit a villager. This unintentional crime made him become a soldier for three years during which he was engaged in several battles, i.e. Chanla 1, Chenla 2 and Chenla 3. When he was fighting, I gave birth to a baby in the care of my mother in law in one of the upper villages. My husband knew nothing about this. I lost track of him for more than two years as we lost connection. It brings me tears to talk about this. Two days after the birth delivery, I received a letter from a messenger in Chenla during a conflict in Kampong Thom. The letter read that my husband was still alive and now he was fighting and told me not to be stubborn. He sent some milk and medicines. I become skinny until today because I cried too much in the early stage of birth delivery. My mother in law told me to stop crying and not to be worried. I thought that it's would have been better if he did not send me letters. When my son reached the age of nine, [he] came by himself, bringing medicines and giving me injections. In times of crisis, no one came to say hello. It was too much for me.

Pivoine:           Do you know about Sarun's education before his entry into the revolution?

Sambath:        He was rather educated. I don't remember his grade. He was young as you can see in the photo. Yes, he was.

Pivoine:           Where did he go to school?

Sambath:        Angkor Ban School.

Pivoine:           When did he left school?

Sambath:        He did when he at grade 9 or 8 (of old Cambodian educational system, counting from 12 to 1).

Pivoine:           Why did he join the revolution?

Sambath:        He joined the revolution with such a view to building the country, as suggested by leaders, in order to liberate the nation.

Pivoine:           When did he join?

Sambath:        1970 during the coup, when Prince [Sihanouk] called for Maquis.

Pivoine:           Did any villagers did the same?

Sambath:        Some, including Rith and my husband. Angkar loved Rith so much that it brought Rith along to work in the Zone.

Pivoine:           What was his position?

Sambath:        Messenger.

Pivoine:           Of which side?

Sambath:        The messenger of the Zone, ruled by Ta Thuch.

Pivoine:           What did a messenger do?

Sambath:        They transmitted letters. For example, when there is a plan of Angkar to go anywhere, the messenger has to be the first to arrive. When [Phnom Penh was] took over, I have no idea where he was.

Pivoine:           Did you know something about his art involvement?

Sambath:        He got involved in art performance following his first job as a messenger. Angkar assigned Rith, my cousinstepbrother, to be in charge of Zone Art Performance.

Pivoine:           How long did he serve as a messenger?

Sambath:        Quite a long time. Approximately three or four years.

Pivoine:           That means he joined the art performance section in 1973-74?

Sambath:        Correct.

Pivoine:           What was his real situation?

Sambath:        The one did commentary work, like inviting guest, what we call now "commentator".

Pivoine:           Anything else?

Sambath:        I know nothing, besides a rumor that he was kept at Tuol Sleng. Some said he had died.

Pivoine:           What did he tell you when he left the art work?

Sambath:        No. We never met.

Pivoine:           Where did he go after 1975?

Sambath:        We were separated since then. My husband was the first to join [the revolution] and the one who get [Rith] involved.

Pivoine:           Does it mean your husband was the first to join?

Sambath:        Yes.

Pivoine:           So, was your husband a messenger?

Sambath:        No. He was a sub-district chief.

Pivoine:           When did he hold this position?

Sambath:        Since [19]70.

Pivoine:           When was he retired?

Sambath:        Two years after his office holding. He was made in charge of military.

Pivoine:           What was his position then?

Sambath:        Chief of Regiment.

Pivoine:           Division?

Sambath:        Division One. There were division 1 [and] division 3.

Pivoine:           What did Sarun do after 1975?

Sambath:        We were separated. My husband himself came to take me to live with him in September 1975.

Pivoine:           So, where did you bring all these photos?

Sambath:        These photos were available from a woman called "Mother of Grasshopper".

Pivoine:           Oh, from Aunty Chanty [Chhem Chanty]?

Sambath:        Sure. The photos were never sent directly, but always through someone.

Pivoine:           So, your cousin never came to visit his house?

Sambath:        No. He and my husband disappeared. I am not sure if he was brought to Tuol Sleng.                That's all what I know about Sarun.

Pivoine:           Did you say you separated from Sarun since 1976?

Sambath:        No. Since 1974. Also the same case with my husband. I never heard of him.

Pivoine:           Were these photos sent via Aunty Chanty?

Sambath:        Yes, they were.

Pivoine:           Did he mention where he [Un Sarun] took these photos?

Sambath:        No.

Pivoine:           Did he tell he want to have his photos taken or to take photos himself?

Sambath:        No.

Chanty:           He had had his own camera. He was the only one who owned it.

Pivoine:           Did he take photo of you?

Chanty:           Yes, he did.

Pivoine:           Do you have any photos left?

Chanty:           No.

Pivoine:           Does it mean he used to visit your house?

Chanty:           Yes. We were neighbors. During that time, Rith [Um Sarun] went to work [far away]. When he returned, it was only me who accompanied him to go for a walk.

Pivoine:           When did he come?

Chanty:           I don't remember. [Occasionally], I drove a motorbike with him to the cinema at night.

Pivoine:           Before or after 1975?

Chanty:           Before 1975.

Pivoine:           Could you tell me his situation then?

Chanty:           He often came to my house. He owned a motorbike, red CL.

Pivoine:           For how long?

Chanty:           Sometimes he spent two nights. I remember him looking for a bull. It had been realized that there were some in the village. So, he was asked to come and ask for it.

Pivoine:           Did he mention about his work or about himself?

Chanty:           No. However, he worked far away. So, when he came, his parents and relatives always asked him about these things.

Pivoine:           Did he mention where he work?

Chanty:           He came once only. We asked him what was up. He said he came to see his children, besides the Angkar's core assignment to seek a bull.

Pivoine:           When he came, did he hold camera?

Chanty:           He had had one.

Pivoine:           Of whom he took photos?

Chanty:           He took photos of my grandmother and his mother.

Pivoine:           What's his mother's name?

Chanty:           Her name is Nay.

Pivoine:           What's about his parent?

Chanty:           Uncle Chun.

Pivoine:           Where was your photos were taken?

Chanty:           Someone's house over there to the east.

Pivoine:           In this village?

Chanty:           Yes. He took the photos of his grand mother and me myself. He had his photo taken, while sitting on the house step.

Pivoine:           What is this village called?

Chanty:           Angkor Ban.

Pivoine:           Which sub-district it is?

Chanty:           Angkor Ban sub-district, Kang Meas district.

Pivoine:           How many times did he come?

Chanty:           He came often. But he did not stay for long. It's remarkable that when [Angkar's] regulation was not so strict, he was able to come.

Pivoine:           Did he keep photos taken by himself with you?

Chanty:           Yes he did. Those photos included the one of grand mother. He took photos and developed films for us. At that time it was only him who owned the camera.

Pivoine:           Did he take photos of villagers?

Chanty:           No. He took photos of his relatives only.

Pivoine:           Did he state the reasons of taking these photos?

Chanty:           He said at this moment, there were no [such opportunity to take] photos. It'd better to take for now. The photo of Thy [Um Sarun] was taken at the mobile work brigade.

Pivoine:           Is it?

Chanty:           Sure.

Pivoine:           The mobile work brigade in this village.

Chanty:           Not in this village, but at the smaller huts next to a lake.

Pivoine:           Did he  come after 1975?

Chanty:           I don't remember, as I was so young.

Pivoine:           He used to visit, didn't he?

Chanty:           Yes. But once he came, he was not able to meet his youngest sister who was not available at that moment.

Pivoine:           Who is his youngest sister?

Chanty:           Vuthy.

Pivoine:           Oh, the female?

Chanty:           Yes. When he came, I was the only one available.

Pivoine:           What's your relationship with him?

Chanty:           Cousin.

Pivoine:           When he came did he bring along his photos?

Chanty:           He brought them in album.

Pivoine:           Did he tell you where he took these photos?

Chanty:           No. But he said, "from now on, we will never meet again. Circumstances become more serious and I am working with Angkar".

Pivoine:           When were you separated from him?

Sambath:        Since 1974.

Pivoine:           Have you heard anything from him?

Sambath:        No. Not at all.

Pivoine:           How did you learn his being at Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        Those friends who came from the upper.

Pivoine:           Those whom he used to work with?

Sambath:        Yes, of course.

Pivoine:           What did they say?

Sambath:        His co-workers and my husband said he was kept at Tuol Sleng. My husband was detained at Kruoch Kor prison. Once the prisoners they were transferred at night to Tuol Sleng. No one witnessed it. My son has never known his father.

Pivoine:           Excuse me, may I know your name?

Chanty:           My name's Chanty.

Pivoine:           What's your surname?

Chanty:           Chhim Chanty.

Pivoine:           How old are you?

Chanty:           37.

Pivoine:           You still look pretty! By the way, where were you born?

Chanty:           Angkor Ban.

Pivoine:           Is it in this village?

Sambath:        Yes.

Pivoine:           So, I would like to ask your name also?

Sambath:        [My name's] Yim Sambath.

Pivoine:           What's your husband's name?

Sambath:        Hang Bunthoeun. He is four years younger than me.

Pivoine:           May I ask you to recount your personal story?

Sambath:        First, I joined the art performance section. Leaders of this section was requested. I then asked some of my nieces to join. Later on I was transferred to sub-district. At that time, as I knew a language and I got older, I was set to work as a medic to give injection and gave treatment to villagers. More young females were recruited. We, medics, were engaged in helping the wounded on the battle.

Khym:             Does it mean first of all you joined the art performance section?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             When did you join it?

Sambath:        Exactly in 1970.

Khym:             Why did you join?

Sambath:        It was said arts promulgated culture.

Khym:             How did they performed and what was it purpose?

Sambath:        They performed as Comrade Say as the one played by Zone Art Performance.

Khym:             What was your role then?

Sambath:        I am in dancing section.

Khym:             How was it look?

Sambath:        "Farmers harvesting".

Khym:             How many members were there in a group?

Sambath:        12.

Khym:             All were female?

Sambath:        Sure.

Khym:             How old were you when you joined it?

Sambath:        When I was more than twenty.

Khym:             Twenty something?

Sambath:        23-24.

Khym:             Who was the chief?

Sambath:        Seng. He was chief of zone art performance.

Khym:             What's zone?

Sambath:        Zone 304, Region 31.

Khym:             At that time, this area was under Northern Zone yet. Which district it was?

Sambath:        Kang Meas district.

Khym:             When you joined the art performance?

Sambath:        It was still Kang Meas district yet.

Khym:             How long did you serve it?

Sambath:        For one year.

Khym:             Where did you go after that?

Sambath:        Then the youngsters became priorities for this field. So, I myself was taken to serve in medical section. I took the lead of younger generation to do politics.

Khym:             What does it mean by doing politics?

Sambath:        Like "let's go to perform. Angkar will take us." I don't remember all. It's too much.

Khym:             In 1970?

Sambath:        Yes, after 1970.

Khym:             So, it means when the Khmer Rouge took over already?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             That means you were in the Khmer Rouge side in this district.

Sambath:        Yes, of course.

Khym:             What's the name of the village chief?

Sambath:        It seems we didn't have any. Oh, Ta Aun. Yes, he was a village chief in 1970.

Khym:             What's sub-district's name?

Sambath: ....

Khym:             Any district chief?

Sambath:        Brother Suong.

Khym:             Where did he come from?

Sambath:        Prey Chhor district.

Pivoine:           I'm sorry to interrupt you. Did you mention that your husband was sub-district chief in 1970?

Sambath:        But he served as sub-district chief in Nokor Ban.

Khym:             So when you left the first job, you moved to medical section, right?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             Why?

Sambath:        Because I am a language-educated woman who could read medical instruction and was able to gave injection to village patients.

Khym:             When did you do such a job?

Sambath:        Since 1971.

Khym:             Is it one year after joining art section?

Sambath:        Sure.

Khym:             Who was your boss?

Sambath:        The medical chief was comrade Sy, as far as I assumed.

Khym:             Where did he learnt [such a skill]?

Sambath:        It seemed Angkar called him from the upper.

Khym:             Where was the "upper"?

Sambath:        He gave instructions in such places as district office and others.

Khym:             Which hospital did you work with?

Sambath:        Sub-district based hospital.

Khym:             Which sub-district was it?

Sambath:        Roka Ar?

Khym:             Is it subsumed under Kang Meas district?

Sambath:        Yes it was.

Khym:             Had you learnt some medical skills?

Sambath:        Yes, I did a lot.

Khym:             For how long?

Sambath:        I learnt how to give injection for two years.

Khym:             Oh, it's quite a long time. Just for learning?

Sambath:        No, I practiced with people in this village.

Khym:             I see. You learned while practicing.

Sambath:        Yes. My practicum included cleaning wounds. Bombing took place so much [during Lon Nol] that I could not go to medical school.

Khym:             So, it was a real practice?

Sambath:        Yes. I gave injection, while trying to escape from bombers. I sometimes hid in bomb pits.

Khym:             You were selected on the ground of your language. What language did you know?

Sambath:        French.

Khym:             Really?

Sambath:        Sure.

Khym:             Where did you lean French?

Sambath:        I learned it when I was in grade three in Peam Chikang high school.

Khym:             Do you speak French a lot?

Sambath:        Yes, I did. But as I haven't practiced for a long time, I forget some. Yet, I am still able to recognize it in terms of translation.

Khym:             What kind of medicines did you use?

Sambath:        The French medicines.

Khym:             It means you used feudal medicines?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             How about the locally produced medicines?

Sambath:        We used both.

Khym:             Who taught how to produce local medicines?

Sambath:        Instead of doing practicum at the factory, we just used it for treatment.

Khym:             What kind of medicines which was locally produced?

Sambath:        B-12, B Complé, etc. They were bottled.

Khym:             How?

Sambath:        Orange juice battle.

Khym:             Did the sub-district hospital provide medical service to both soldiers and villagers?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             Was it effective?

Sambath:        No problem. We used it to treat villagers even following the liberation.

Khym:             It's good.

Sambath:        Well. If I use such a skill up to now, I would have been in a much better living conditions. But now, as I produce cabinet for sale, I could not make [much] money.

Khym:             What was the situation of villagers in 1970-71? Were they able to do rice farming?

Sambath:        In 1970-71, we had communal eating. U.S. bombings left so many holes to this school.

Khym:             Communal eating since that time?

Sambath:        Oh, [we were] in Reciprocal Labor Group.

Khym:             How did it work?

Sambath:        There were 20-25 group members who shared benefits.

Khym:             Where did you go after leaving medical job?

Sambath:        My health was not good enough. My husband...I was pregnant.

Khym:             Had you been married?

Sambath:        No. Not yet.

Khym:             When did you get married?

Sambath:        1972.

Khym:             After you had served as a medic?

Sambath:        Yes, by the end of 1972--Year of the Rooster.

Khym:             After then?

Sambath:        When my husband realized I was so weak during the 7-month pregnancy that I could not work. So he decided to bring me along with him.

Khym:             Where did he stay in 1972?

Sambath:        It was about to give birth. However, Angkar required my husband to fight against Chenla Army.

Khym:             What does it mean by Chenla?

Sambath:        It was named Chanla 1, Chenla 2. Skull is their logo. It was said the army was so strong.

Khym:             Which side was it?

Sambath:        Lon Nol's side.

Khym:             You are in the "red" [KR] side?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             And your husband took the Khmer Rouge side and fought with Lon Nol?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             What was going on then?

Sambath:        We were separated. I was put in the care of my mother in law to give birth. My sister in law was also helpful. [I] lived a hard life. We didn't have good thing to eat. We just ate for survival. My husband spent at least 8 months fighting. I knew nothing about his fate. It had been said during the fight with Chenla Army, thousands of Khmer Rouge were killed in the pits. So I didn't hope to see my husband again. Only in 1975, when Phnom Penh was liberated, I knew he was still alive. He was in Division 1 stationed to the east of Phsar Thmei Market. First it was said Division 1 became under Division 2, while some others said [members of] Division 3 were arrested.

Khym:             So, it means areas were divided?

Sambath:        I don't know how they did it. And the Northern Zone and Eastern Zone were totally separated.

Khym:             In 1975, after the liberation, was you still in the village, while your husband was engaged in fighting?

Sambath:        Yes. A messenger brought me a letter, telling me he was alive. I told the messenger that I didn't believe it unless the writer of the letter came to see me in person.

Pivoine:           Were you happy?

Sambath:        I was angry, not happy. Yet, I knew it was written by himself. I was insisting that I would be happy if I saw my husband coming home. I started crying again and again. My mother in law suggested that I stopped crying, warning I would be blind to cry too much during baby care period--three days after giving birth to my son.

Khym:             Was he born in 1975?

Sambath:        I don't remember the month.

Khym:             Was it during the liberation of Phnom Penh in 1975?

Sambath:        No, after the liberation.

Khym:             How many month after the liberation did he sent the letter?

Sambath:        6 months.

Khym:             It means almost the end of the year.

Sambath:        I was committed to myself to believe that I would not believe he was alive if he didn't show up. Just half a month, he came by himself brining some milk and boxes of medicines.

Khym:             Did he give you?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             What position did he hold?

Sambath:        Chief of Regiment?

Khym:             Which number was the division?

Sambath:        I remember Division1 only.

Khym:             What's the name of the division chief?

Sambath:        Brother Oeun.

Khym:             So, only the Oeun in the Northern Zone?

Sambath:        Yes he was.

Khym:             Then?

Sambath:        You know, it was quite a long time of separation. I say the truth. He brought a watch and a pair of small baby mat-clothes. The SEIKO watch has been stolen. He said, "Now we are separated for quite a long time and Angkar wants you to live with me in Phnom Penh." I agreed. I stayed around Phsar Thmei market close to the National Bank. Six months after that, sign of turmoil appeared to be realistic. It was heard there would be establishments of "White Party", "Red Party" [and] "Blue Party". And the Red Party had had its partisans. I didn't know. I had just gave birth to a baby, so I cared nothing but my own health. And as it was the first time to stay with my husband after separation, I decided not to worry. One day, "upper Angkar individuals", such as chiefs of Division 1, Division 2, and Division 3, organized a party at my home. Then I moved to Prek Phneou.

Pivoine:           So, you moved from the National Bank area to Prek Phneou?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             When did you move?

Sambath:        In 1976.

Khym:             What did you do while you were in Phsar Thmei?

Sambath:        I was often asked to work at garment section with female staff. Female staff over there said I was a cadre's wife. I cried before the chiefs of divisions, having no way to go. I said where did you want me to go, when I had not seen my husband. This is another separation.  

Khym:             In 1976?

Sambath:        In February 1976.

Pivoine:           Have you ever seen him since?

Sambath:        No. Since February 1976 up to now. I was told not to worry as my husband was sent to fly. I didn't believe it. I thought my husband might have been taken by Angkar to be killed. I already heard about my husband. I told chiefs of divisions, "If you guys go, do not call us up. I am now teaching my son"

Khym:             Do you mean "implication"?

Sambath:        Yes. It is. I knew myself that my husband might have been arrested.

Khym:             Who told you that your husband was going to fly?

Sambath:        Chief of a division.

Khym:             The Ta Oeun?.

Sambath:        Yes, he is.

Khym:             So, Ta Oeun was telling a lie.

Pivoine:           Had you talked with him?

Sambath:        Yes. He did for me not to worry but happy. "Few days later, you will be made to meet him." But at that place we were given enough to eat, including fish paste. And our bed rooms were equipped with bed, mattress, and blanket all of good quality. I could not help appreciating such a quality of care, yet not the lie that my husband was taken away.

Pivoine:           Did they tell you where your husband was taken?

Sambath:        No. What I know is what my husband was asked to serve as a pilot. Preoccupation remained in my head, "My husband must have been taken". That's why I said I have had a lot to tell you about my story. Perhaps ten days later, another phenomenon took place, indicating that all families of cadres were being assigned to live in cooperatives. I talked to myself that I would never fear of death, since I had been full [with bitter experiences]. I'd rather die if Angkar decided to take me and my baby. At 7 p.m., a truck was present. I thought I had to have been killed. I had to prepare myself household stuff, including mosquito net, blanket, and thermos. In the middle of the road, the thermos exploded indicating a bad omen--my husband had to be taken to be killed. Then we were taken to Lveang village, Cheung Prey district.

Pivoine:           When?

Sambath:        Late 1976.

Khym:             What were you told to do?

Sambath:        I cannot remember. I am not sure whether I came to Lveang before or after Toeuk Chha. First, [we] was set to live with an elderly couple who had had no children. But, they were very nice. Seeing me with a baby, they felt sympathetic and carried water for me for fear that I would face allergy if they did not do so. I remember once I ate rice, the rice bowl dropped off and crashed--another omen. When I went to sleep, I dreamed of someone coming to cut open my stomach. And I felt that the much blood remained in my stomach. I guessed that my husband had to be killed. Following that omen, it was said chiefs of divisions would be taken back to Phnom Penh. From Lveang to Phnom Penh--from a place of mattress and [good] equipment plus dried fish to the early situation. They told me that I was strong enough to sew. I was asked to work in garment section in Tuol Kork, with an instruction that it was a

big department for [military] divisions [also] and that when I reached that place...

Sambath:        I said I would not go unless I could stay with my husband. "You are telling me a lie or what? If my husband is alive, why I can't see him." I told him, "Now please take me to cooperative so that I can meet my parents. I beg you, please."

Khym:             Who did come to take you?

Sambath:        Chief of division.

Khym:             The Oeun.

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             How about Oeun. When would he take you?

Sambath:        He assigned his messenger to come.

Khym:             Does it mean he pitied you or what?

Sambath:        No, he did not treat us badly. Perhaps he felt mercy toward us.

Khym:             Probably, he feared of mistreatment at the cooperative, right?

Sambath:        Yes, he took back. I always insisted that he brought me to my early cooperative, not the one I was falsely convinced to stay with my husband and that I could live with my mother [in law] as I didn't know where my husband was. At 7 in the morning, we were taken as planed. Not only me was taken, but also other cadres. We were set to live in Ta Kham village.

Khym:             Where is it?

Sambath:        It's close to a path in Prey Chhor district. I became sick most of the time. I was made to live with an elderly woman and his adult daughter in a hut. The woman said to me,  "You had just given birth to a baby. And you could not do hard work. So, please just stand and pass palm leaves to me so that I can make a roof." My baby often slept. I myself was worried. She worked for the kitchen and I stayed at home. She always brought food for me, as she was chief of eating hall. She took care of my baby who would be returned until evening. She cooked, while looking at my baby. I was sick. District chief also paid a courtesy visit to me, asking if I would recover in few days, when my husband was going to be brought to me. I didn't believe it. I thought it was only a better way to make me good. It became my chronic disease now. Then I was sent to a hospital in Kampong Cham. Let me talk a little bit about my son. It was so sad to hear him talking while playing with mud in the rice field, "Mom, our daddy is coming." And I sobbed.

Khym:             How old was he?

Sambath:        When he learned to walk--9 months. He crossed the bath and told me that he realized that that guy was not his daddy. I was heartbroken. So, when I was hospitalized in the provincial town, I met my cousin who I have been living with until today. I spent 8 months at the hospital but I did recover when I met my cousin.

Pivoine:           Where is the hospital?

Sambath:        A hospital in Kampong Cham.

Khym:             Do you remember when?

Sambath:        End of 1976 or early 1977. The friends of my younger brother often gave me green banana for me to boil. The hungrier I was, the more delicious it became.

Pivoine:           Which younger brother?

Sambath:        The one currently working at...

Pivoine:           What's his name?

Sambath:        Sin.

Pivoine:           Is he your sibling?

Sambath:        Sim.

Pivoine:           Sim Sin?

Sambath:        Yes.

Pivoine:           Male or female?

Sambath:        Female. When I stayed at the hospital, he brought mosquito net, blanket, towel. Fortunately, he went there with upper Angkar and the one in charge [of the hospital] met [my brother].... My salary is 10,000 Riel per month. That's why I live under hut.

Pivoine:           When did you stop working at hospital?

Sambath:        I spent three months there. In 1977-78, tension became obvious, right?

Pivoine:           You said currency was not used, right?

Sambath:        No. [No circulation]

Pivoine:           Do you know the reason why?

Sambath:        Most of us didn't have money to spend. I heard upper Angkar was able to do it, while lower cadres could not do so.

Khym:             Did you stay at district or provincial hospital?

Sambath:        No. Provincial hospital.

Khym:             What's its name?

Sambath:        No. I don't know.

Khym:             How was their treatment?

Sambath:        Simple treatment. Most importantly, they used popular medicines.

Khym:             What's it?

Sambath:        The ones we produced locally.

Khym:             Produced by the Khmer Rouge?

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             Was it effective?

Sambath:        But, we combined with [modern] good medicines. I could read scripts on the bottle. They wanted to test us whether we knew or not. If we are educated, we would be taken away.

Khym:             What were common diseases?

Sambath:        All of them were victims of bombs. Some lost their limbs.

Khym:             So, was it reserved for cadres only?

Sambath:        They had two separate buildings: one for cadres and the other for ordinary people.

Khym:             Any different food?

Sambath:        Yes. Cadres had more meat, including dried fish. It was not so delicious.

Khym:             How about the ordinary people?

Sambath:        They also could have soup with more vegetables and less meat, you know.

Khym:             What was the difference between medical treatment for cadres and the one for ordinary people?

Sambath:        Not so different.

Khym:             How about their attitude?

Sambath:        They cared about us. They asked us what we felt and asked to inform them when we were not well.

Khym:             How many times were you allowed to eat?

Sambath:        Three meals per day: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Khym:             You said you got married in 1972. What did it look like?

Sambath:        It was the first model of weeding ceremony in Kang Meas district. It was not the time for 10-couple weeding yet. My husband was a sub-district medic. I also worked with him. There were wines. It was a 15-table feast. Some companies co-sponsored it. But they didn't use money. Our parents were allowed to join, too.

Khym:             What was going on?

Sambath:        We dressed in black, with scarf roughed around the neck like this way.

Khym:             What we were supposed to say?

Sambath:        We were asked to show our commitment whether we were honest to each other and to our nation. [My] husband was invited first and me second.

Khym:             Why did your husband come to you?

Sambath:        At that time, he was a chief of sub-district. He loved me as a female medic. He had a lot of rivals before getting me. District chief also...Then my husband played a trick. He asked his parents to talk with my mother about this issue. Angkar said I would not available anymore, since we two were engaged since previous [Sangkum Reastr Niyum] regime.

Khym:             How old was you when you got married?

Sambath:        I was 21.

Khym:             Was he handsome?

Sambath:        Yes, he was.

Khym:             Who is more handsome among the two?

Sambath:        The district chief was whiter and was a good-looking man.

Pivoine:           Was there any monk blessing during your weeding?

Sambath:        No. After the ceremony, we were allowed to come home for few days so that parents and elders as well as relative could give us blessings.

Pivoine:           When did you meet your husband in Phnom Penh?

Sambath:        In 1977. We had five months together.

Pivoine:           Where did you meet?

Sambath:        Around the National Bank. When a rumor of creating "White Party" or so, families of cadres were made to live in hospital. That's why we were far away.

Pivoine:           Were there any Khmer Rouge in the village after 1979?

Sambath:        No.

Pivoine:           Have you ever used the medical skill you learned during Pol Pot regime?

Sambath:        That's why I say, when circumstances change I will practice it again. In 1980, there was a selection of teachers in Prek Phneou. We was told to answer in French, if we could not do in Khmer.

Pivoine:           You did not serve as a medic?

Sambath:        No.

Pivoine:           What did you do after the 1979 liberation?

Sambath:        In late 1979 to early 1980, I became a teacher in Roka Ar. This profession is up and down. I find it hard to feed my son alone.

Pivoine:           Why don't you take it again now?

Sambath:        My cousin and his wife are doing better and better, while I am worse and worse.

Khym:             You have gone through the Khmer Rouge regime yourself. What do you think about it?

Sambath:        I think...I remember one of my teacher, Keo Saroeun, who taught Khmer. He taught about ideologies of feudal and capitalist system. I was first doubtful. And when I had gone through the regime, I just understand now.

Pivoine:           What do you think?

Sambath:        I say the King appealed Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge to join marquis. That's why I was invited. When I reached there, I wonder why they got the rice from?

Pivoine:           Where is the jungle you left for?

Sambath:        In Kratie province, where I spent half a month walking.

Pivoine:           When did you join?

Sambath:        1974-75, probably.

Pivoine:           Before or after your weeding?

Sambath:        After marriage, 1973-74, when we were told to see opera performed by the Zone.

Khhym:          Do you want any compensation to make you calm?

Sambath:        I wish the upper Angkar [now] to support me in terms of [proper] house.

Khym:             If a Khmer Rouge tribunal is ever established, which group do you want to face trials?

Sambath:        Such as Khmer Rouge leaders. I think no one rather than King Sihanouk himself. During my hospitalization in Kampong Cham I saw him being taken here.

Khym:             How did you see him?

Sambath:        I was bored and I so I asked them permission to go for a walk.

Khym:             What was he doing?

Sambath:        I didn't see him. But I was shown his residence.

Khym:             So you mean, he is the leader and you don't know who should be tried?

Sambath:        Yes. I don't what to say. He led and shouted at Veal Chap.

Pivoine:           Where is Veal Chap?

Sambath:        In Battambang.

Pivoine:           Now let me ask you about these photos. Where did you take it?

Sambath:        At opera-hall. We took this picture all together.

Pivoine:           Who are they?

Sambath:        This is Phon, Vuthy [relative and younger sister of Um Sarun].

Pivoine:           Are they alive?

Sambath:        Yes. They are living in Phnom Penh.

Pivoine:           Where do they live?

Sambath:        I don't know.

Pivoine:           You have gone through the Khmer Rouge regime. And when you look at your photos taken during that time, what do you think?

Sambath:        I feel that I was better than now in terms of health and beauty. But I am a bit fat now.

Pivoine:           Thank you so much. Did you meet Hou Nim and Hou Yun? [KR leaders]

Sambath:        Yes.

Khym:             What was his character?

Sambath:        He was righteous. I meet him during my school days. His was born in Sambour Meas. Hou Yun was a native of Sambour Meas. His nephew/niece was a friend of mind.

Khym:             Are there any of his brothers and sisters alive?

Sambath:        Yes. They are in Sambour Meas. Elderly Tiv Ol, whenever invited, his wife gave a speech.

Khym:             Later on, Tiv Ol was in charge of Hospital 17 April in Phnom Penh in 1976. Was he killed?

Pivoine:           Among these people in the photos, who could you recognize?

Sambath:        No. I don't know.

Pivoine:           Only Sarun.

Pivoine:           How about this photo. Where did he take the photo?

Sambath:        It was taken in Nokor Ban.

Pivoine:           Did you take this photo?

Sambath:        It is a picture of a beginning of Chroy Changva bridge.

Pivoine:           Why do you know where it is? Did you meet him or did he tell you?

Sambath:        No. I can see the situation in the city as if the place I lived in Phnom Penh. He never told me. I never met him.

Pivoine:           How about this old man?

Sambath:        I used to see him. He worked with Rith.

Pivoine:           Where this photo was taken?

Sambath:        Chamkar Daung.

Pivoine:           Why do you know that?

Sambath:        It's exactly. He worked everywhere. He had had a camera offered by upper Angkar.

Pivoine:           What's about this?

Sambath:        I don't know where. Perhaps in front of the house.

Pivoine:           This one seems to be at the sea?

Sambath:        Yes, it is Kampong Som.

Pivoine:           Did he work in Kampong Som?

Sambath:        It's Kampong Som. I recognize all these stones where I played.

Pivoine:           When did you play?

Sambath:        When I was a teacher following the 1979 liberation.

Pivoine:           Did he tell you he used to visit Kampong Som?

Sambath:        No. We never met.

Pivoine:           This one?

Sambath:        It seems the youngest brother.

Pivoine:           Or it was taken at Wat Angkar in Kampong Cham?

Sambath:        Not Kampong Cham, but Siem Reap.

Pivoine:           When did he go there?

Sambath:        In 1973-74, after marriage.

Pivoine:           What was the purpose of his presence?

Sambath:        Visit, such as seeing what's going on in each region.

Pivoine:           This one?

Sambath:        It seems to be in Kampong Speu; I am not sure.

Pivoine:           How about this one?

Sambath:        This lady took it. She brought it to be developed.

Pivoine:           What's her name?

Sambath:        Elderly Suos.

Pivoine:           What's Suos?

Sambath:        I cannot remember.

Pivoine:           What's her relationship with you?

Sambath:        My grandmother.

Pivoine:           This one?

Sambath:        I don't know where it is.

Pivoine:           Don't you remember this photo?

Sambath:        No. It seems to be a prison.

Pivoine:           Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        Tuol Sleng.

Pivoine:           Does it mean you used to be kept at Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        Yes.

Pivoine            Really?

Sambath:        Sure.

Pivoine            When?

Sambath:        Previous regime.

Pivoine            When?

Sambath:        During the coup. During the coup I was in Phnom Penh.

Pivoine            During the coup did you study there?

Sambath:        Yes.

Pivoine            Which school?

Sambath:        After graduating from Peam Chikang, I attended a typing course at Independent Monument for six months. When the coup broke out, I returned home for fear that I would be forced to join the Khmer Rouge.

Pivoine            How was Tuol Sleng?

Sambath:        It was not converted into prison yet. I just played there. It was a school.

Pivoine            It was a school first of all?

Sambath:        Yes, it was.

Pivoine            Was it called something else?

Sambath:        No. Only Tuol Sleng School that it was called. When Pol Pot took power, it changed to be a prison.

Pivoine            Thank you very much.

END

PA Interview with Chhem Chanty, Cousin of Om Sarun

Living at Angkor Ban 7 village, Angkor Ban subdistrict, Kang Meas district, Kampong Cham province

January 22, 2003

Dany

Additional with Yim Sambat and

Touch Chenda, age 20, son of Vuthy and nephew of Um Sarun

July 25, 2004

Ban Sarin

Chan Leang         

Chann Sim

Ing Vannak

Khorng Siv Lay

Khvan Sichan

Nhem Noeun

Srun Song

Van Rith