CHANN SIM

Case of Chann Sim

Interviewed with his brother named Chann Him, 55 years old, living in Prek Por village,

Tek Vil sub-district, Sa-ang district, Kandal province.

January, 17 2004

Interviewed by: Pang Pivoine, Sim Sopheak and Ra Chhayrann

Pivoine:   What's is your name?

Him:        Chann Him.

Pivoine:   How are you related to the subject of the photo?

Him:        I'm his brother.

Pivoine:   So, how many siblings do you have?

Him:        I have four siblings, two died.

Pivoine:   So, who died then?

Him:        Heoung Channheng and Heoung Sim (or Chann Sim).

Pivoine:   Excuse me, what is your family name? Chann or Heoung?

Him:        I don't know, but that's what we are called. Actually, our family name is Kheoung.

Pivoine:   So if you choose Kheoung, then your brother's name is Kheoung Chann, right?

Him:        Yes, Kheoung Chann.

Pivoine:   Could you please tell us about your brother when he lived in that regime?

Him:        First, he studied and then worked as a farmer until 1972-73, when he was a soldier in the army. He joined before me. Later, he was sick, but he couldn't refuse to join the army group, for many people already joined the group. The reason was that they, both boys and girls, were lobbied to join the army. No one could escape so I also joined after them in year 1973. Later, they visited me and took the picture for memory. I was in a group that was in charge of making cloth for the army.

Pivoine:   So you were a cloth maker or barber?

Him:        No, I was a painter and I also worked as a photographer. I brought along my personal camera.

Pivoine:   So were you the one who took your brother's picture?

Him:        Yes, I also used a stand while taking the photos.

Pivoine:   If your brother refused to join the army, what would have happened to him then?

Him:        They'd have forced him if he resisted. We had no choice, we had to go. They said it's the obligation. Some married people could work in the village, but those who were single had to go.

Pivoine:   How old was he when he joined the army?

Him:        I forgot.

Pivoine:   When? 1972?

Him:        He was 18-19 years old. When he was sick, they allowed him to stay in the village while other people couldn't stay. They didn't strictly control him. After that, again he had to join any unit he met while traveling but I can't remember which unit. There were many.

Pivoine:   Which unit?

Him:        There were many units. I couldn't remember the first unit he joined before he became sick. But after his recovery, he joined division-12.

Pivoine:   The first was division 12. How about the next one?

Him:        It was in region 25. They divided in regions at that time.

Pivoine:   Did you ever see what happened to those who resisted joining the revolution?

Him:        .......

Chhay:    What was his position when he joined the revolution?

Him:        He worked as an army soldier.

Chhay:    Where was he sent to work then?

Him:        He was sent to work as a barber after me. We met each other too.

Chhay:    Where did you work?

Him:        I worked at the soldiers’ building and hospital.

Chhay:    Did you work in the same village?

Him:        No, I worked in the whole region, but we were grouped differently. And then, we worked with each other again in the central committee, division 12.

Chhay:    Do you still remember where he first joined the revolution? Was it in this village?

Him:        No, he joined in the central committee and later in eastern part.

Chhay:    When he worked in the eastern zone, did anyone take his picture?

Him:        No, only before he worked in the eastern zone, since when he was so thin.

Chhay:    So, this picture was taken when he visited you, right?

Him:        Yes. And after his return, he was given an army uniform.[picture 2; looks like a graduation picture]

Pheak:     Why did he take that picture?

Him:        Just for memory, because being a soldier, life is unpredictable.

Pheak:     When did he take the picture?

Him:        In 1973.

Pheak:     Where did he take the picture?

Him:        At home in Koh Khel.

Pheak:     Where's that place?

Him:        In Or-Choun village.

Pheak:     Is it in Koh Khel sub-district?

Him:        Yes.

Pheak:     Is it in the same district?

Him:        Yes. They called finance office 13.

Chhay:    Were you the one taking his picture?

Him:        Yes I myself.

Chhay:    What about the camera?

Him:        It belonged to the group leader.

Pivoine:   What's his name?

Him:        Phorn Phon.

Pivoine:   He was the group leader of what?

Him:        He was in charge of leading the photographers and army group. We worked hard, so he liked and trusted us.

Pivoine:   Did you borrow it from him or did he give it to you?

Him:        No, we borrowed it from him.

Pivoine:   So, why did you have to borrow it from him?

Him:        Because if he died, we still could have picture.

Chhay:    Was there only one picture of him?

Him:        No, there were many but I don't know. We lost them.......

Pivoine:   Where did you develop the film?

Him:        We just created a system using a battery.

Pivoine:   Can you give us a further explanation?

Him:        We just laid the film and then projected the light through the film............We could develop it in two ways.

Pivoine:   How long did he stay with you during his visit?

Him:        He stayed a bit long, but I don't know exactly how long.

Pivoine:   Can you estimate?

Him:        May be it's around 3 months or so.

Chhay:    He visited you only one time?

Him:        When he visited, he was about to give up his job, for he's sick.

Pivoine:   Do you know why he visited you?

Him:        He came because he's sick.

Pivoine:   What kind of sickness?

Him:        He had problem with his intestines. But after the operation, he was better. If he were not seriously ill, he'd have been sent to the battlefield instead, they would not send him to work as a barber. They sent only those who were energetic. They also had a health screen for soldiers.

Pivoine:   Where were you first sent to stay?

Him:        We were first sent to live temporarily in Sreh Am-bel and then we worked permanently in a hospital.

Pivoine:   You mentioned that they had a health screen, right? So how did they do this?

Him:        They had medical checks for all the soldiers. For example, if one had tuberculosis, he had to be treated first before being sent to the battlefield. They did not just simply send any kind of people.

Pivoine:   So this means that your younger brother was sent to work as a soldier, then as a barber after his sickness, right?

Him:        Yes, but after his work as a barber, he joined the army group again.

Chhay:    He visited you in 1973?

Him:        No, I don't know whether it was 1973 or not. But....

Chhay:    Was it true that all soldiers had to have their picture taken?

Him:        They took pictures only during the celebrations.

Pivoine:   Did you learn to take pictures by yourself?

Him:        Yes. I was not a professional photographer. I just learnt from others, and I even used to film but I forgot. I had other responsibilities.

Pivoine:   Did you ever film?

Him:        No, never but I used to mix the colors.

Chhay:    After he joined the army again, did he send any more pictures?

Him:        No.

Chhay:    Any letters?

Him:        There was someone working with him who came from Phnom Penh told me a lot about him, but I forget.

Chhay:    After 1975, did he visit you again?

Him:        He came in 1975.

Chhay:    Was it during the liberation?

Him:        No, at that time we were working in cooperative. We did not join the fighting.

Chhay:    When Phnom Penh was captured, did you know where he lived?

Him:        We were working together. We cut hair for soldiers working in many offices and departments, division 12. After 1975, they started to send soldiers to work in the farm........

Chhay:    After 1975, could anyone take any other picture?

Him:        I don't know. I heard that my younger brother worked in the finance section of S-21, he was in charge of finding rice, water and other stuff for people there. Then I learned that he was sent to build the airport in Kampong Chhnang.

Chhay:    When did you learn that?

Him:        1976.

Chhay:    Do you know why they sent your brother to work in S-21?

Him:        I heard it from my brother’s friend.

Pheak:     What's his name?

Him:        Nak.

Pheak:     What was his position?

Him:        He was a soldier like my younger brother, but he lived in another village. When he attended the meeting, he wanted to demolish...............

Pheak:     Where was the meeting take place?

Him:        Olympic Stadium.

Pheak:     When?

Him:        I can't remember, but it was in between 1975-76. He wanted to completely destroy the meeting, but Angkar learned about it in advance.

Chhay:    You said that Sim went to Kampong Chhang in 1976, didn't he?

Him:        It's hard to know exactly when because there was not any calendar during that time.

Pheak:     You mentioned that they took pictures only during celebrations. In which celebration did they take picture?

Him:        During the meeting. They had to pay for this picture, because in 1973 people still used money. The gave the money we earned to Angkar.

Pheak:     What kind of people did you take the photograph?

Him:        I took picture in the wedding party for it's not yet communist regime. Some of people said that the war was vague to help King Sihanouk. But we didn't know the real reason. Even though the communist group took control in 1975, we still didn't know.

Chhay:    Beside Chann Sim, did you take anybody else's picture?

Him:        Yes, I did.

Chhay:    Were they Khmer Rouge cadres?

Him:        No, I took only the combatants' pictures. But I was not working here, I worked in Phnom Penh as a barber, but when they need help, they just asked me to help them develop the film. I learnt the news from Sim's friend that Sim used to work with him in Kampong Chhang. However, I heard the news from Beijing radio that Sim was handicapped.

Pivoine:   Did you have a radio?

Sim:         Yes.

Pivoine:   What did they say on the radio?

Him:        I just heard that part only.

One of Sim's friends was sent to China. Then his family announced on the radio that he was lost. Then he came back. If my brother were in China, he would be back home too, but he might stay somewhere else besides China, maybe in the United States.

Pivoine:   How many times had you taken your brother's picture?

Him:        Only one time.

Pivoine:   Did you take this picture when he visited home or somewhere else?

Him:        Yes, I took it when he visited us and after that he went back to the battlefield.

Pivoine:   So you took his picture in the battlefield, not in the village, didn't you?

Him:        No I took it behind the building, at 13 office, and I took at the rice field. I did not have the right to take pictures in the battlefield.

Pivoine:   When were you separated from your brother?

Him:        We were separated when he started to work as a barber. The reason why Sim worked as a barber was because he was sick very often.

Pivoine:   Did you admit that Sim's your brother?

Him:        Yes, I did.

Pivoine:   When you met Sim, did you take the photograph with him?

Him:        No, I did not.

Pivoine:   When did you last meet him?

Him:        I last saw him when Angkar called me to take pictures during the wedding party. There were many couples getting married at the same time.

Chhay:    When did you take the wedding picture?

Him:        Half a year after the liberation in 1975.

Chhay:    Did you take the wedding picture by yourself?

Him:        No, I was only responsible for developing the films.

Chhay:    Did you ever see Pol Pot's photograph?

Him:        I can't remember. I did not care who was who.

Chhay:    Did you ever print a photograph of Pol Pot?

Him:        No never. I could never get close to him. We were prohibited to enter his area........

Pivoine:   Did you know why Sim was sent to work in Kampong Chhnang?

Him:        Well, during the meeting at Olympic stadium, I met with Nam who worked with my brother. Nam told me that Sim was sent to another unit, but he didn't know which unit. Him said they always sent people working in S-21 to Kampong Chhang, but they never returned to the battlefield.

Pivoine:   So he first was sent to the battlefield and then to Kampong Chhnang, right?

Him:        Yes he worked as a in the economics cell at S-21 where he had to find vegetables and meat. Sim was chosen to work in this unit because Angkar believed that Sim was not involved with the enemy group.

Pivoine:   What was his leader's name?

Him:        I didn't know. After Angkar arrested his leader, they kept only people who were hard working and honest towards Angkar.

Pivoine:   How did you know he was sent to the S-21?

Him:        Because after the liberation in 1975, I was transplanting rice near Beong Kengkong.

Pivoine:   Did you know whether anyone took your brother’s picture when he was in S-21?

Him:        No, I could not contact with my brother. Neither I could ask anyone else.

Pivoine:   Could you tell me what were his responsibilities?

Him:        He tried to find vegetables from other provinces such as region 25.

Pivoine:   Did he get the vegetables?

Him:        Yes, but he had to work very carefully because if the food had problem, he would receive punishment.

Pivoine:   How many years did he work in S-21?

Him:        S-21? Not so long, maybe between 1975-1976, then he was sent to work in another unit.

Pivoine:   Did you contact him when he was working in other the unit?

Him:        No, because I was a barber, I could not go to other places.

Pivoine:   So after 1979 did you take the photograph again?

Him:        Yes, because I wanted to work as photographer. But later I started thinking that people do not have much money, so they won't bother taking photos, so I decided to choose other work.

Pivoine:   After 1979 did you go to S-21 to see your brother's picture?

Him:        No, I didn't know where it was.  I thought he disappeared, so no need to go there. If he is still alive he will come back to us, but if he won't, it means that he is dead.

Pivoine:   I want to repeat the question. You said between 1972-1973, people still used money. And you earned money by taking pictures.  So how did you keep money, you kept it by yourself or you gave to Angkar?

Him:        I gave it to Angkar, I had no right to keep it.

Pivoine:   Could people celebrate the wedding parties during that time?

Him:        Yes, when I joined the revolution, people still celebrated them until liberation in1975 when people were not allowed to celebrate them.

Pivoine:   Could you lend me this picture?

Him:        Yes, but give it back to me, ok?

Pivoine    Because before I didn't see the picture you took with your brother.

Him:        This picture was not taken in the revolution, but this picture took during the revolutionary period.

Chhay:    Did you want the original picture back, or new picture?

Him:        I want the original one.

Pivoine:   If I print a new one with a better paper, so could you give me the original picture?

Him:        Ok, no problem.

Pivoine:   Did your brother ever go to Prey Sar?

Him:        Yes.

Pivoine:   Did the Khmer Rouge send him to S-21 first or later?

Him:        Because the Angkar suspected that he betrayed the Angkar.

Pivoine    Do you mean that your brother betrayed the Angkar and then they sent him to S-21?

Him         They didn't give him food to eat. So that is why he tried to fight Angkar. Then
 he was sent to S-21.

Pivoine:   Pardon me, S-21 or Prey Sar?

Him:        They called it S-21.

Pivoine:   S-21 had some sub-offices, like S-21 A and S-21B

Him:        Sim worked at S-21. Angkar accused him of working against Angkar, so he was reeducated at S-21.

Pivoine:   Did you know whether a picture was taken of him when he worked at S-21?

Him:        I didn't know either, I couldn't contact him.

Pivoine:   You lost your brother and you have gone through bitter experience during the Khmer Rouge regime. So what do you think it can be compensation?

Him:        I don't want anything, but I just want to know who created the war?  War can't be vague by only one person.

Pivoine:   What do you think about the up-coming Khmer Rouge tribunal?

Him:        I deserve a tribunal, so we will know who is right and who is wrong. Not only Pol Pot alone should be sentenced. I want to find out the truth, and I want justice.

Pivoine    Thank you very much for your answers.

Ban Sarin

Chan Leang         

Ing Vannak

Khorng Siv Lay

Khvan Sichan

Nhem Noeun

Srun Song

Um Sarun

Van Rith