Vanthan

…events taking place between 1975 and 1979 during Democratic Kampuchea. The specific timeframe is between 1975 and 1979, and this morning I want….

Im

75?

Vanthan

Yes, between 75 and 79. And today, I want to ask you a little bit about the history of Trapeang Thma Dam being built. Did you ever hear about Trapeang Thma Dam?

Im

About the Trapeang Thma Dam. Yes, I did.

Vanthan

Yes, during this interview…will you allow us to record the interview?

Im

You have to answer some questions, and then…[you can record].

Vanthan

[I] want to ask [you] about when Trapeang Thma Dam was built. How was it constructed? Were there any policies about building the dam, and for what? How many people were involved in working there? How did people work? How was the food regimen? How were people divided into work groups? My questions are to form a history…for other historians and students to do research and learn from those who lived through the regime. Will you allow [us to record you]?

Im

I worked at the dam, but I did not stay there. After spending one year working there, in late 1977 and early 1978, I moved to work and live in Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

Does this mean that the dam was built a year before your arrival?

Im

One year before.

Vanthan

One year before. When did you work there?

Im

I went there in 1978.

Vanthan

In 1978. When did you go?

Im

Yes.

Noy

At the end or beginning of that year?

Vanthan

So, it had been established a year before.

Im

I was there in December…[Im Chem answers the phone]… I got there in December 1978. Oh no, in December 1977.

So

You mean that you arrived there in December 1977?

Im

Yes, in 1978, I worked on the summer rice field and rainy-season rice field.

Vanthan

In what district?

Im

In Preah Net Preah district; I went to work in Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

In December 1977, did you go…

Im

In 1977, I left Takeo province.

Vanthan

You left Takeo province?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You left Takeo province for Trapeang Thma.

Im

Yes, I went to supervise that place and the areas below it.

Vanthan

When you got there, how was the dam? What percent of it was complete?

Im

Yes, the dam was built. People were assigned to work on the summer rice field.

Vanthan

So, there was a dam?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Who was mobilized to work on the dam, do you know?

Im

People were from Svay Sophon, Thma Puok, Phnom Srok, and Preah Net Preah districts. There were a few people from the far east of Svay Sisophon district. A large influx of people came from Phnom Srok and Preah Net Preah districts. People from Thma Puok district worked in the mobile unit.

Vanthan

How did people work there and what materials were used to build the dam? Was there any machinery?

Im

No machinery, only human labor.

Vanthan

Human labor only?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

How long did people work? And what time were they allowed to take a break?

Im

Work started at 7 a.m. until 11 a.m. and then people took a break. At 2 p.m., people started working again.

So

Until when?

Im

From 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.

So

Did they work at night?

Im

They did not work at night. There were groups of people. While the younger groups were working, the older groups took a rest at their own houses.

Vanthan

The older ones slept in their houses?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

So, the houses of those living around there.

Im

Villagers around there.

Vanthan

The younger ones slept at the construction sites?

Im

[The younger ones] slept at the sites.

Vanthan

And, what about the food?

Im

Food was distributed. Those on the front lines were provided with rice. One person received a can of rice per day. The distribution was based on the number of workers and the availability of rice. Everything was collected from the growers in the village and transferred to the construction sites.

Vanthan

What about the food rations?

Im

The food rations…were tackled in a practical way. In some places, a can of rice was boiled and each person could get a bowl of rice porridge. So, the ration was a bowl of porridge. That was the ration.

Vanthan

In general, was it porridge or rice?

Im

Porridge, which was thick porridge; [we didn’t have] rice often.

Vanthan

Generally, porridge.

Im

Yes, generally.

Ly

Let me ask again, when you arrived at the Trapeang Thma Dam, did you know how many people worked there?

Im

I did not supervise, but my management duty was that each district was assigned to take control of each target.

Ly

So, there were people from two important districts, Preah Net Preah and Phnom Srok.

Im

Phnom Srok.

Ly

And there were fewer from other districts?

Im

Yes, a small amount of people were working on the mobile unit and would come to help. That was what I saw. I sent my forces to fill in and help work.

Vanthan

Where did you work previously?

Im

I worked in Takeo province. I was from Takeo province and moved to Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

When you were in Takeo, what work did you do?

Im

[I] worked with people.

Vanthan

Before you arrived in Trapeang Thma, did you know who was in charge of this place?

Im

Yes, I did. Ta Nhim and Ta Him of Battambang province, and Ta Maong and At were in control of Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

Did they all survive the regime and are alive today?

Im

No.

Vanthan

Are all of them dead or are some still alive?

Im

They all died.

Vanthan

When did they die?

Im

They had died before I arrived there. They were taken away.

Ly

So, in late 1977 and early 1978?

Im

1977.

Ly

Did you know why they were taken away?

Im

They were taken. When I arrived, Ta Maong and Ta At were still alive. But after I got a list, both of them were taken away.

Vanthan

Who assigned you to get the list? From whom did you get it?

Im

I received it from my predecessors.

Vanthan

The predecessors! A boss there, a clerk in Preah Net Preah district?

Im

Of course.

Vanthan

From At or Maong?

Im

Of course.

Vanthan

When they were taken away, what lists did you receive? You did have control there or did someone else take over?

Im

There was a mobile unit chief at the dam. I handed over the unit. However, I took responsibility for the forces of Preah Net Preah district. If there was any problem, I would report it.

Vanthan

Concerning the work, from whom did you receive the working plan between 1977 and 1978?

Im

It was made at the Zone, then the province and down to…. At the Zone it was Ta Nhim and at the province it was Ta Lai at Svay Sisophon.

Vanthan

Ta Lai: did he survive?

Im

Died. The policy was made hierarchically. For example, it was from district to sub-district...

Vanthan

You received the policy directly or through letters or messengers?

Im

They called us to a meeting to receive the plan. For example, one month, there was an assignment to dig canals to start summer rice transplantation. So, we prepared the forces at the back to transplant rice at the front. I divided forces into two groups: one at the construction sites and another one at the back taking responsibility for growing summer and rainy season rice.

Vanthan

So, you controlled the two groups?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You controlled the forces?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Is anyone in this village who worked at Trapeang Thma still alive?

Im

No. Yes, not all. Only those working at the back survived. For those at the site, no one lives here; they moved to live at Malai.

Vanthan

What are the names of those at Malai?

Im

Soeun. He worked at the site.

Vanthan

Male or female?

Im

Male. At a market.

Vanthan

You worked at both the construction site and at the back, which provided assistance?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You were in charge of the dam between 1977 and 1978?

Im

Yes, 77-79. That was in front of the dam within my district. I was at Preah Net Preah at that time.

Vanthan

Was there anyone left at Trapeang Thma?

Im

No. I was the last one to leave.

Vanthan

You were the last to leave.

Im

I built the dam in my own district.

Vanthan

In Preah Net Preah district.

Im

Of course. [ Im Chem talks with other guests]

Vanthan

Who were your colleagues at Trapeang Thma?

Im

Below me was Soeun Chakrei.

Noy

At Malai?

Im

Chakrei is a market.

Vanthan

Oh, at Chakrei market.

Im

Yes! He is the one who was after me for a short time. Because there was a squabble and shots were about to be exchanged, he escaped.

Vanthan

You were in charge of the dam between 1977 and 1978; did you make every decision?

Im

No, I could not make any decisions at the dam. I could make a decision at my own targets, the forces that were under my control. In Phnom Srok and Thma Puok districts, there were other supervisors.

Vanthan

Other supervisors.

Im

Others’ parts.

Vanthan

Were there any upper-level supervisors?

Im

At the provincial level.

Vanthan

The province took joint control?

Im

Yes, it meant the provincial governor.

Vanthan

Which province?

Im

No, it was not Ta Khet.

Vanthan

What was his name?

Noy

It means that it was from the provincial level.

Im

His name was Ta Hing of Sisophon province. Upon my arrival, Hing was taken away and disappeared. Only Ta Lai and Chiel survived.

Noy

Chiel.

Im

Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim, the chief of the zone.

Vanthan

Oh, Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

His father was arrested; why was he not arrested?

Im

Both father and son were arrested. [I ] do not know where they were taken.

Vanthan

The whole family?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

But let’s go back. You said Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim.

Im

Yes, the son of Ta Nhim.

Vanthan

[Chie] was the provincial governor in charge of all of Trapeang Thma?

Im

Of course, together with Ta Lai.

Vanthan

Nhim was arrested, but his son was not?

Im

Both were captured.

Vanthan

But was Chiel able to return?

Im

No, he disappeared forever.

Vanthan

Oh, during that period of time, in 1977 and 1978, Lai and Chiel took complete control of Trapeang Thma?

Im

Yes, Chiel and Lai.

Vanthan

Could you give us the exact date – whether in the early or late 1978 or in which month in 1978 – when Ta Lai and Chiel were captured?

Im

[They] were captured. I do not remember the month but it was when …transplanting rice during the rainy season.

Vanthan

Oh, while transplanting rice.

Im

Yes, in September or October.

Vanthan

In 1978?

Im

Yes, in 78-79.

Vanthan

After they disappeared, who took over?

Im

After their disappearance, there were some quarrels. The ones who took over lost control until the Vietnamese arrived. They fled to the mountains. I worked in that district. I prepared to build two dams and one canal, which linked Trapeang Thma.

So

What were the names of the dams?

Im

Spean Sreng Dam.

Vanthan

Spean Sreng Dam?

Im

Yes, below Trapeang Thma Dam.

Vanthan

Was there another dam?

Im

I built dams at Rorneam in Prasat sub-district.

Vanthan

Rorneam?

Im

Prey Rorneam in Prasat sub-district.

Vanthan

Prey Rorneam was where there was flooding.

Im

Prey Rorneam or Rogneam?

Vanthan

Prey Rorneam from the Tonle Sap.

Noy

Yes.

Im

Water flooded from the Tonle Sap.

Vanthan

Did you have to build the dam?

Im

Yes, we had to build the dam. During the rainy season, the water became high. Thus, we dug canals to connect the dams. Fish from the Tonle Sap came into the dams at O-Chik.

Noy

O-Chik.

Im

O-Chik is close to the Spean Sreng and Ta Pon Rivers near the canal. So, the river connects with the O-Chik River. The Ta Pon River connects with the Spean Sreng River, from where it flows to the O-Chik River.

I built the dam at the upper level. We built a canal 30 meters wide and 10 kilometers long that connects from Trapeang Thma down to the O-Chik River. So, there are a lot of fish. In the meantime, the dam still exists. Looking to the east, it connects with Leaph mountain. I worked there at that time. I had a discussion with my people on the plans…[Im Chem answers the phone]...I’d like to tell you about the work at that place.

Vanthan

How about the two dams and one canal you built? When did you build them?

Im

2000…. Oh, for the whole year of 1978.

Vanthan

For the entire year?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You said there were a lot of fish after building the dams. How about other farming?

Im

I was able to do the farming because I divided the workforce into two. The young worked at the front. When I arrived at that place, I found it horrible to see youths at the construction site. They were ill and thin. I saw the evacuees from Phnom Penh with no food and being ill. They stayed in the houses because of their illness and lack of food. Generally, the vegetables growing near the houses bore no leaves. When I got there, some people were poisoned when they cooked leaves for food. That was the hardship of the people of Preah Net Preah district before I arrived there.

It was said that those growing vegetables at the back had put their production in warehouses: rice, pigs, and coconuts. Everything produced was put in the warehouse, but those who produced it had nothing to eat. But cadres working at the sub-district, district and provincial levels could consume the production. Those producing palm sugar could only produce it. So, when I arrived there, people kept me alive and supported me or called in supporting forces. That’s why when I fled to the mountains, 4,000 people went along with me.

Vanthan

Went along with you?

Im

With me. Even though I did not allow them to go, they kept going. It was because they believed in me. They shouted that they now could see the light of the sun. So, I let those who had wives return to reunite with their families. When I reintegrated, I came and stayed here. They came and visited me continuously. This year, half of the people from my home village visited me.

Vanthan

Came here?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What was your solution to tackle the difficulties?

Im

After identifying these problems, I divided the human forces into two. I came up with a plan. I knew that during the rainy season, knee-deep water flooded National Road 6. Those senior-level cadres who favored me gave me some advice that if you built a dam crossing National Road 6, Tik Cho, Prasat, and Phnom Leap sub-districts would not be flooded. So, I asked them how many dams should we build? They said it would be 30 meters wide, 15 meters at the end, and 20 meters in the middle. People could bring their cows, pigs, ducks and chickens there during the rainy season. During the dry season, I built the dams there to let the water flow through the 10 kilometer dams. There were a lot of turtles and fish: a single net spread could catch half a basket. I drove the boat along…I assigned the first force, who worked on the dams for only three months. Within just that period, I completed the dams.

It was because of that that I let those who were ill and thin look for food freely. They could fish in the river. So each group was released and could survive with their fishing poles. They could catch fish and cook food freely. When I visited there, people’s excrement looked like that of white herons. They ate fully until they got diarrhea. They ate, worked and slept together. The young people lived separately. I was from a provincial unit. Then I confiscated guns from militiamen and district militiamen. Those who were ill were assigned to fish for food, while others were mobilized to work at the construction site.

Vanthan

When you came up with the plan, did you ask for permission from the upper Angkar?

Im

I asked for people’s comments. I raised the plan because I had just moved in. The upper Angkar also paid attention to my work.

Vanthan

Really?

Im

Yes, I made the plan and forwarded it to the upper level. After the upper level approved it, it would be sent back. For example, on parallels 8 and 9, I wanted to build the dam in the district. The dam stretched from the east to the west to enable people to live comfortably. I carried out the plan until the time I fled to the mountains. Another dam had not been started; only the dam in Preah Net Preah sub-district was completed.

Vanthan

As you remember, after you came up with the plan, who approved it?

Im

Approved?

Vanthan

Who gave most of the approvals?

Im

Generally, approval came from the zone, but they kept track of me. All the reports were sent to the highest level of the central committee. Having seen the proposed plan, they were discontented with me. They said I needed the dam and canals to transplant rice. They called me to a meeting in an attempt to arrest me, but they failed to do so.

After the approval, I assigned some forces to farm and build dams, while other forces dug canals to prepare for the summer and rainy season rice planting. Other groups grew potatoes. I transported potatoes from the mountains, where there were military bases, to the borders. There were two trucks to transport the potatoes for the people. Another truck was sent to Kien Svay to take potatoes from my friends. Two trucks took the seeds from Angkor Chey and Koh Andet districts, Takeo province.

Those from Mrech and Pursat districts always helped me. Pou Sarun gave me two trucks of sugar. I distributed it to the people because I saw their difficulties. Some became ill in their houses. That’s why I opened all the warehouses. Pigs were raised, but not for slaughter. They were so thin. So, I did not permit anyone to slaughter them for food.

At that time, there were plans made by the upper level to celebrate a party for the people to eat rice. I approved the 10-day, 20-day and 30-day parties. Rice and sugar in the warehouses were distributed equally in every sub-district because they had their own warehouses. Those who produced palm sugar could consume palm sugar.

People did housework in the back, while from 7 till 11 a.m. there would be communal work. From 12 till 1 p.m., people could grow vegetables near their houses. Within one year, people could have sugar canning and potato-grinding machines. Children could dry the potatoes at home. Their parents could go to work. I monitored them properly, but did not stay in one place.

So many people were able to survive. Some left for their home villages, while others came along with me to the mountains. That was a reflection of what I did. I did not flee alone. How could I do something wrong if I did not know that place in advance? When I arrived there, I was under surveillance. I was about to be arrested by people possessing eight guns. They failed to capture me because people who considered me as their mother prevented me from being arrested. 

Kheang

Let me ask you. You presented your proposal to build dams during a discussion with people at the zone. After Nhim and Chiel were taken away, who took over for them?

Im

There were no successors because Ta Mok took over. He met with me, about plans. At first, he believed the report that I was stubborn about because I used to transplant rice at dams in Takeo. I was accused of being too stubborn.

I was accused of letting cows eat a bunch of rice while walking on the dams. In fact, it was true. I assigned others to take care of it. Ta Mok believed in them. After they were arrested, Ta Mok came and met with me. Then, I asked him, what was the matter? He sent me to welcome guests at Svay [Sisophon]. I refused [the order]. He asked me why I refused to go. I said no to him. [I said] When I was there [in Takeo], you assigned me to resolve people’s issues. Now, I made the plan with you for three years. I said that within three years, I would tackle people’s issues here. If I failed, you can send me back [to Takeo]. How could you want me to change my workplace if I did not resolve those issues? If you did so, people said it was bad. After I prepared for everything, the Vietnamese came and I fled to the mountains.

Vanthan

During the regime, while you worked at the Trapeang Thma, did you ever welcome any delegation or those at the central level who came to visit here?

Im

They came, letting me accompany them.

Vanthan

Who were those from the upper level?

Im

Chinese and uncle Khieu Samphan also came and visited there.

Vanthan

Did Nuon Chea or Pol Pot come?

Im

Pol Pot visited occasionally, but Khieu Samphan did often.

Vanthan

Did Khieu Samphan himself visit the dam?

Im

Yes, he did.

Vanthan

What were his comments?

Im

While seeing human forces working at the dam and at the rice field, he urged [us] to continue to work hard. At that time, I was thinner than now.

Vanthan

Were you?

Im

Yes, they wanted to poison me, because they could not arrest me. They gave me tablets, while asking me to come to a meeting. Then, they wanted to give me an injection. But I refused and fled to my home. I was thinner than now because of being poisoned [laughing].

Vanthan

How did you know that there were poisons or injections?

Im

When I joined the meeting, I got a fever. I told them about the fever, and they gave me the suspect tablets. I was required to take three small white tablets three times a day. I heard people whispering under the house while I was sleeping in the house. It was about the previous squabble. They never read my monthly reports. Every time they saw it, they tore it apart.

Vanthan

Who tore them apart?

Im

Those at the provincial level. There was quarrel, but I never forgot my people together with those evacuated from other places who protected me. They protected my life at night, guarding me while I was sleeping.

Vanthan

Weren’t the people afraid that the upper level would persecute them?

Im

No. They relied totally on me, except those who were taken away without my knowledge. The first time, three of my forces assigned to work at the rice mills died; the rest turned to me for help. I helped them. The second time, my forces were called to be educated in Phnom Penh, but they disappeared. I felt regret at their disappearances. People from the Southwest [Zone] and the bases kept waiting for me when they realized that I had left. They feared that I might be killed, so they waited from daytime until the end of the time they expected me to return.

Vanthan

Would you now dare to come back to Trapeang Thma?

Im

Why would I need to fear? People there keep sending regards to me.

Vanthan

Which district is Trapeang Thma in?

Im

Phnom Srok district; it connects with Kralanh of Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

So, the main construction site is in Phnom Srok district?

Im

Yes, in Phnom Srok district.

Vanthan

At Kralanh and Preah Net Preah districts?

Im

Preah Net Preah has dams below. I built the dams in Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

Trapeang Thma is located on the upper?

Im

Upper.

Vanthan

In Phnom Srok district?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Did you work there and supervise Trapeang Thma?

Im

I did not control there, but just sent some of my workforces to help there.

So

How many people did you assign to work on the dams below Trapeang Thma?

Im

My forces consisted of 800 [people].

So

800 from Preah Net Preah?

Im

Yes, I mobilized 200 from each sub-district.

Ly

One sub-district, but not one district?

Im

200 from one sub-district. Its 10-kilometer length needed three consecutive work forces.

Vanthan

Was it the 10-kilometer dam that you built?

Im

Yes.

Ly

So, the dam’s width was 10 kilometers?

Im

Two dams and one canal. The main dam consisted of 100 people from one sub-district, but another dam needed 100 people.

So

You have said it took you the whole year to complete the dam. Among the 800 people, how many people were left after its completion?

Im

Human forces?

So

Yes, people working at the dam.

Im

After its completion, people returned to their home sub-districts.

So

Were there 800 people left, or fewer than before?

Im

No, no one was lost because I had proper medical care. Tents were set up. One kilometer was assigned to one sub-district and they could spend three months completing it. Afterwards, half a kilometer would be added. So, I prepared youth forces to back up and support them fully. I did not ask for help from the outside. Those who were upper level provided tobacco because I did not say that I had plenty of things.

Ta Mok wanted me back because it was reported that I could not deal with people’s problems. In fact, I begged others to help my people, but not for myself. People ate porridge, so did I. That was the point that kept me alive until now.

So

Concerning the forces you sent from Preah Net Preah district to work at Trapeang Thma dam. How many people?

Im

Only 100 were sent to each construction site. However, they found it very hard. At night, my forces were thought to oppose them. Thus, they expressed discontent with my forces. Some of them were expelled during the day and night. I was a bit different from others. While my forces in the front could not grow anything, those at the back could grow and support us sufficiently.

Vanthan

Were those at the back able to support those at the dam adequately?

Im

Yes, of course. People were assigned to work hard, so they needed to have a enough food.

Vanthan

Weren’t your ideas opposed to the upper Angkar’s policy or principles?

Im

Because I was against the policy, I could not get along with others. They argued that I was stubborn due to the fact that I transplanted rice and worked on dams. They gave me tractors to plough the fields. I refused to take them because the rice was growing waist high. I feared that it might damage the rice.

I did everything to cope with people’s problems; that’s why all of my forces looked black and lively. There was a dissemination about the working force divisions with those in the front and those at the back in Preah Net Preah district. There was assistance to the forces. Based on facts, I walked in the morning and moved earth with people.

There were eight gunmen who asked my people where aunt Chem’s tent was located. They responded that she had no tent. She just kept moving. They really wanted to arrest me. At that time, I also made a request to Phnom Penh, saying that my people lacked clothes. He [Ta Mok] provided me with clothes. I set up a garment workshop to make clothes for people.

If you do not believe me, you can ask those who lived in the sub-district, Preah Net Preah district. But those who had been evacuated may have returned to their home villages. Those who died did so because I was unable to tackle the problem on time. If [I was] on time, I dared not say anything because some believed it and some others did not believe in it. However, let’s ask the people themselves. People were thin and ate poisonous leaves. That was when there was the right leadership, and people could survive. If not, people would die. They died of food shortages.

As I mentioned earlier, food was found, but not distributed to the people. Crops were collected and kept at the houses of sub-district chiefs and district chiefs. People, however, had nothing to eat. Even earthworms did not exist. Lizards were eaten. I felt so much pity when seeing such conditions, given my previous miserable life and experience without parents. I then set out plans.

Everything I did was discussed with people in meetings in order to get their comments. So, the solution impressed the people, who said they could see the sunlight. They had festivals, such as enjoying the New Year celebration. All the warehouses were opened. People could go and have a big bowl of sugar for each family. During the Phchum Ben, they made Khmer traditional cakes. I was so different from others, ranging from making cakes. We made the cakes jointly but distributed five cakes to each family with five members, ten to ten family members, two to two family members, three to three family members. They then could boil the cakes at their houses.

Vanthan

They made the cakes and then boiled them by themselves?

Im

Yes, the cakes were distributed equally and boiled by themselves. There was no discrimination that a person should get only this amount. Those who made the cakes also got the same amount. Doing so allowed me to eat the cakes; otherwise I could not, when seeing that people lacked food.

Vanthan

Did you know if the upper Angkar knew about these things?

Im

They did. There were two different sides. Those who got into a quarrel with me and reported that what we did was bad. The other side came to meet with us. They listened to the people and reported to the upper Angkar. They supported me and realized my background; I was assigned to work.

They said they wanted to arrest me. I was implicated in the confessions of those who were arrested. My chiefs were also implicated and I was allowed to see [the report] and read it.

Vanthan

Which one?

Im

The provincial chief of Kampot who was replaced by the newcomer. His wife was sent to spy on me. He also came to spy on me. When they found nothing about me, he took me and asked others about this or that person who did something. I knew who the chiefs of the group, village, and sub-district were. Then I felt pacified. I was allowed to read the report.

Oh, mother! My name was put in the arrest column. The report was so long that I almost could not survive the complaints. That’s why some people, especially women, were asked to quit their job. It was only me who has worked since I was 19 years old. I always had squabbles with people I worked with. I was a loyal person, tackling people’s issues. There was a report to seek for my arrest. Pol Pot himself said if that person could not be used, let him work with that person.

At a meeting, there was a declaration that aunt Chem was the person who Angkar sent in and strove to tackle people’s issues. I was fearless. At the meeting, I was accused of things I did not do. I was told to join a meeting on the third floor of a wooden house. That was the day they wanted to arrest me. At midnight, a car was prepared to take me. They spread propaganda to urge the people of Mongkul Borei, where I lived, to flee to Oddar Meanchey in order to get me. I learned about this because people told me about the flight plan.

At the meeting, ten questions were asked. I answered; they ranged from the activities at the Trapeang Thma construction site to the issue of people fleeing. First, they accused me of persuading people to flee to the Southwest Zone; did I have a specific purpose? Second, older sister Chem convened the meeting of the core forces; why was the meeting held? Third, where did the fleeing people want to go? I was able to answer all ten questions. I said there were all notes about the meetings. On the 30^th, I held a meeting to review the past work plans and set out the next plan. Second, people who fled from the construction sites reported to you and asked you to help resolve the issue. All were reported and all questions were answered.

Vanthan

Was it true that people fled?

Im

Yes, they turned to me because they were accused of being enemies.

Vanthan

They fled from Trapeang Thma to meet with you?

Im

Yes, they did. After answering five questions, they [Khmer Rouge cadres] hit the table with their hands. When they stood up, so did I. They sat, and so did I. But they prepared forces to arrest me. I realized that.

Vanthan

Who attended the meeting?

Im

They were from the Preah Net Preah and Thma Puork district level. I was not familiar with them. But one of those from Phnom Srok and Svay Siphon districts was my husband. He was so quiet. People looked at me strangely. I realized that today was so strange. Armed men encircled the house. I was called upstairs; it was so quiet. They stood up, and so did I. They sat, and so did I. After I answered those questions, they slammed the table. They declared that the meeting had ended.

I then went down around midnight. I was with my messenger. When my moto arrived at the security checkpoint outside, we pierced through the checkpoint gate. I did everything possible to get back to my house. When I arrived at Rohal sub-district, Preah Net Preah district, I thought that it was far from Svay Siphorn district.

In my own district, I confiscated all the guns and there was no more security checkpoint gate. So long as I reached my district, I was sure that I could survive. I then told the messenger to inform the people about a meeting tomorrow. I devised the plan, thus they could do nothing. We held the meeting in cooperation with them. When the report was made, we could say that the meeting held on that date was designed to encourage people to work. In other words, we had to strengthen our stance for survival purposes. Within the Rorhal sub-district boundary, my messenger told the village and sub-district chiefs to join the meeting tomorrow.

After I had walked for 20 meters, I saw people coming out from the rice fields at midnight and asking me “where did you come from?” I responded I had returned from a meeting and then they went back. I realized that people protected me. I did not have any plan to have them guard me, but they did so. They knew that I was chased. Other people came out for another 10 to 20 meters until I got home. Even now, the older people, who have died by now, asked me to hold a religious ceremony for them.

Vanthan

During the meeting, who were the delegation slamming the table?

Im

Ta Nhim, the zone chief. When I got home, I knew that people helped protect me very strongly.

So

Was your messenger allowed to come into the meeting?

Im

He guarded downstairs.

Vanthan

Was it Sokh who was your messenger?

Im

He stayed at Malai and got married there. Now, he is divorced.

Vanthan

No, it was alright.

Im

Yes, I suffered from miserable things, but there was no need to talk. From generation to generation, I worked so hard. In the meantime, I strove to tackle people’s issues such as resolving squabbles.

Vanthan

You have said the uncle [your husband] was the district chief of Svay Siphon?

Im

Yes.

So

Did he supervise your work?

Im

He did the same as me. As he was about to be arrested, he stopped working and fled to the mountains. He was replaced.

Noy

Why did they plan to capture him?

Im

We did not know the reasons why they chased him that day. Then, he was replaced and sent by Ta to Phnom Srok district.

Vanthan

Who was the Ta?

Im

Ta Mok.

Ly

To stay in Phnom Srok?

Im

Yes, he did.

Vanthan

At the construction site where you worked, were you given any guidance on searching for bad elements?

Im

Yes.

Ly

What was it?

Im

Yes, there were letters sent from the zone office to have me capture people. I told you that letters were sent to me three times to get me to arrest people. But now, he is still alive. I believed in him, who was my district member.

Ly

There were instructions to search for bad elements. Who were they referring to?

Im

There were different categories of people to be identified for arrest. For example, one of my members worked for the youth group. He was accused of masterminding a youth demonstration. In fact, he did not. I allowed him to stop working to find fish for food. I then refused the arrest letter. Another letter was sent from the Phnom Leap village chief to capture bad elements that led the people in improper ways. It was their intention to arrest him three times. But I did not. I let him see the letters of his arrest. He kept following me everywhere. Now, he has returned to his home village.

Noy

You refused to capture him. What report did you make to the upper Angkar?

Im

I reported that I did not find the person yet. I hid him.

Noy

What was the reaction from the upper Angkar?

Im

No reaction. They believed my report.

Ly

Besides the accusation of masterminding a youth group, were there any accusations that resulted in arrests, such as having a relationship with a civil servant during the past regime, or having CIA, or KGB or the Vietnamese agents in the units?

Im

Yes, it was. They kept searching for those elements, who all were captured. I just tackled people’s problem there.

Ly

Does this mean that upon your arrival, everything had been done?

Im

Yes, it was hard to see such a bad thing. Therefore, I confiscated all the weapons from the military unit and district militiamen.

Vanthan

You were so clever to confiscate the weapons.

Im

Clever. Everyone said I was so clever.

Vanthan

They could not do anything without weapons?

Im

Of course, we could walk at any time we wanted to.

So

Before you came to work on the dam, what did you do in Takeo province before December 1977?

Im

In Takeo?

So

Yes.

Im

I worked in Koh Andet district. I worked with the people transplanting rice. I stayed there during the rice planting. However, after the rice was ripe, I did not stay there for the whole year.

Vanthan

I would like to ask you about your personal background.

Im

Yes. It is alright.

Vanthan

Your name is Chem. What is your surname?

Im

Im.

Vanthan

Im Chem.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

How old are you?

In

Sixty-two.

Vanthan

What is your husband’s name?

Im

Chem: My husband is Nop Nhen.

So

How old is he?

Im

Sixty-six.

Vanthan

You are 62.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Where is your home village?

Im

In Takeo province.

Vanthan

What is the village?

Im

Kbal O village, Cheang Torng sub-district, Tram Kak district.

Vanthan

You were from Tram Kak, which is the same district as Ta Mok’s?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

How many children do you have?

Im

I have 8 children: 4 died and another 4 are alive.

Vanthan

You have 4 children who are still alive. When did your 4 children die?

Im

They died during the war.

Vanthan

Was it the war after the Vietnamese arrived or during the Khmer Rouge war between 1975 and 1979?

Im

When the Vietnamese army came.

Vanthan

Where did you join the Khmer Rouge revolution; was it in Takeo province?

Im

In Takeo province.

Vanthan

When?

Im

I joined in 1970.

Vanthan

Since the 1970s.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What were the reasons you joined the revolution?

My reason was that I was poor. And, I was afraid that our territory and the Khmer race might be lost.

Vanthan

Did you think this because there was propaganda or was it your own idea?

Im

There was no propaganda. At that time, I saw my neighbors borrowing others’ money with their rice fields being used as a mortgage. They had nothing to work on. The poor were so miserable.

Vanthan

That’s why you decided to join the revolution?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

In the 1970s?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

After you joined the revolution, what did you do and what positions did you hold? Do you remember?

Im

I did not hold any important post. I knew only how to organize an association to help people when they were in danger, got ill and died.

Vanthan

When did you work in Koh Andet district?

Im

1976.

Vanthan

1976. So, in December 1977, you were transferred?

Im

I left for Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

When the Khmer Rouge won their victory, where were you?

Im

In Takeo province.

Vanthan

When the Khmer Rouge occupied Phnom Penh?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

In 1975?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What did you do at that time?

Im

I had a plan. I assumed responsibility for women being evacuated.

Vanthan

When Phnom Penh fell to the Khmer Rouge, was there a plan to evacuate women?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What kind of evacuation? From where to where?

Im

[They] were evacuated from Phnom Penh and from the places the [Khmer Rouged] liberated.

Vanthan

[You] were responsible for women.

Im

For women.

Vanthan

Were you in Phnom Penh or in Takeo?

Im

I did not stay in Phnom Penh.

Ly

Do you mean that you were in Takeo, but you took responsibility for those women who were evacuated from Phnom Penh or other places?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What were there plans to evacuate the people?

Im

After the military conquered a place, the people were evacuated. I myself took responsibility for facilitating their living. For example, the evacuees were assigned to settle in this village, I had to provide proper accommodation for them.

Vanthan

When were you born?

Im

I was born in 1946.

So

In what year according to the Khmer calendar?

Im

I was born in the year of the monkey.

Vanthan

Year of monkey in 1946.

Im

[Laughs]

Vanthan

What is the name of this village?

Im

O-Angre village.

Vanthan

Sub-district?

Im

Trapeang Tav sub-district.

Vanthan

Anlung Veng district, Oddar Meanchey province?

Im

Yes, of course.

Vanthan

How many years have you been working as the sub-district chief?

Im

I have held this position since June 2005.

Vanthan

Are you the sub-district chief?

Im

Deputy chief.

Vanthan

What is your rank?

Im

Rank 1.

So

How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Im

I have eight siblings; some died during the war.

Vanthan

How many brothers and sisters?

Im

Four sisters and four brothers.

Vanthan

Which child are you in line?

Im

I am the first child.

So

Besides you, how many of your siblings served the revolution?

Im

Only me and two others. The two died.

Vanthan

When did they die? Was it when the Vietnamese arrived?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Did your parents approve of you joining the revolution?

Im

There was no approval because it was normal for people to struggle to bring Samdech Sihanouk back. It was when there was a coup in 1970.

Vanthan

What was your father’s name?

Im

Each Iv.

Vanthan

Each Iv. What was your mother’s name?

Im

My mother’s name is Pot Chim, but she died when I was 10.

Vanthan

Your mother?

Im

Yes, my mother died. Then I had a stepmother.

Vanthan

What is her name?

Im

Prum Koeun.

Vanthan

Is your father still alive?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Where is he?

Im

In Malai.

Vanthan

How old is he?

Im

87.

Vanthan

87. In Malai.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Who does he live with?

Im

He lives with his wife.

Vanthan

Do you visit him often?

Im

Yes. He came here a few years ago, but now he cannot move.

Vanthan

Are there any villagers here who used to work at the dams?

Im

No.

Vanthan

I just want to meet a few of them.

Im

We have only those who did not work there. Only young people and youths were assigned to work in Preah Net Preah district.

So

How old were they?

Im

Between 15 and 20.

Vanthan

You did not change your name?

Im

No. I did not.

Vanthan

Im Chem. People called you that name while you were working?

Im

Yes.

So

Let me ask. When did you get married?

Im

I got married in 1964.

Vanthan

64. Did you have children during the Pol Pot regime?

Im

I had two children. One died, while one survives.

Vanthan

When did he/she die?

Im

S/he just died, while I had only two children.

Vanthan

During the Khmer Rouge regime.

Im

He did not stay with me. He lived in another place.

Vanthan

Where did he stay?

Im

He was in charge of a group of district militiamen.

Noy

When did you know Ta Mok?

Im

I knew him because I lived in the same home village.

Noy

Did you know him when you were young or when you joined the revolution?

Im

I knew him during the war.

Noy

Before the occupation of Phnom Penh?

Im

Yes.

Noy

During the 1970s?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

1975?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

We would like to thank you very much for spending time and letting us interview you.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What about his [Ta Mok’s] wife?

Im

Ta Soeun and Ta Saom.

Ly

Soeun, his/her father is Tum Sao.

Other

Sao Soeun.

Vanthan

Ah.

Noy

Kilo 18.

Im

Kilo 13.

Noy

Did he have wife because you said he got married? What is Soeun’s wife’s name?

Other

Nin.

Im

Nin.

Vanthan

Nin. And the other two?

Im

So, you have eight siblings and children?

Vanthan

They all got married. I still have a child and an adopted child.

Ly

You mentioned another name: Sokh [Im’s bodyguard]?

Im

Sokh lives near Chakrei market.

Ly

At Chakrei market?

Im

Malai market.

Noy

Did he have a wife?

Im

He got married but is now divorced.

Vanthan

What is her name?

Im

Thy.

Vanthan

Does he live with his parents?

Im

With his siblings.

Noy

What are his siblings’ names?

Im

Kou and Chrep.

Noy

Are both male? Or is Chrep female?

Im

Kou is female and Chrep is female too.

Vanthan

Before we leave, do you have any questions?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What are your questions?

Im

I want to ask you, how will you use the information on my background of struggle? Will you compile it? How will you disseminate it?

Vanthan

As I mentioned earlier, this interview was done in order to study and compile the history of Democratic Kampuchea between 1975 and 1979. So, the interview we conducted will be cross-checked with other documents left behind at the Documentation Center of Cambodia. Only in this way can we know how factual the history was. We do not have enough information because many papers have disappeared. In other words, the governing and leadership structures of the Khmer Rouge regime between 1975 and 1979 were somewhat secret, so the Cambodian people cannot understand it well. It is difficult to understand and know without a full story. It is like a round thing with some parts missing. We then begin to do research on who knows the past story and wishes to tell us.

For example, with regard to Trapeang Thma, there is no document mentioning this dam. However, after meeting with you, [we learned that] you worked there. You told us about that. We now know how Trapeang Thma was built. That was an account for the next generation to understand about the 75-79 regime, which built the dam. They are able to know how the dam was built, who supervised it, and what the food rations were. It is a story the next generation wishes to know about. That is the reason I came here and asked you about others who used to work there, for they might know about the work. You know a part of it; others might know another part. So, we want to put it together to become a full story about Trapeang Thma Dam.

Im

Yes, I just want to ask you about the way the information will be published. We the people wish to reach a goal, which is happiness. Secondly, we don’t want war. People’s goals are just that. But you coming from Phnom Penh, either from the royal government or a non-governmental organization, and wish to compile history. So, it is very good. Secondly [again], [I am afraid that] the information might be used, arguing that the regime was bad. The bad or good might lead to damage or arguments. That will take us the wrong way.

Vanthan

In terms of history, I will just write about what you have said. I would not write anything that you did not say. How can I know [if you don’t tell us]? That’s why I am seeking information coming from the true story that you have lived [told us]. Without the true story, how can I search for other information? In other word, our work is to preserve the history. A history emerging from lies or exaggeration is not a history.

Im

Yes. It is.

Vanthan

That is the reason we have gone to every district and province such as Koh Andet of Takeo province. I have asked for information from those in Koh Andet district.

Im

Yes, was it the preservation of the history of the era?

Vanthan

Yes, we only cover the story of the regime. To be sure, our goal is to work on the period between 1975 and 1979. It was when the Khmer Rouge came to power in 1975 and was toppled in January 1979. That is the time for which we are compiling the story. Not so many historians have written about it. There is a gap during that period. In the meantime, the Royal Government of Cambodia has issued a sub-degree to the ministries of culture and tourism to compile the history of what happened during the Khmer Rouge regime. It also allowed the Documentation Center of Cambodia (DC-Cam) to publish a book about the history of Democratic Kampuchea. It was signed by Samdech Hun Sen, who advised the cabinet of ministers to establish a committee to review the writing.

Neighbor

Isn’t that information related to the tribunal?

Vanthan

As I told you earlier, if the tribunal needs it from us, they can request it and can come and ask for more details. We can provide them with the information we have. We don’t know how they will use it; either it is useful or useless. It is up to them to decide. But for us, we work only on history. Whether or not they refuse [your information], what you have said is relevant to the history between 75 and 79.

Neighbor

I understand that. It was about 75-79. Isn’t there any relation with the trial, is it?

Vanthan

It also relates to the period that the tribunal is working on. It will be up to their examination because the tribunal will try the leaders of Democratic Kampuchea between 1975 and 1979. It covers the same period. We are working on the history of the same period. It is usual that historians have documents. We can provide them with documents in case the tribunal needs them. However, it is the tribunal’s decision on whether the information could be used or not.

Ly

You said earlier it is very important because we just went through the war. Even if there is a trial, justice needs to be weighed against peace. In other words, as you have said about the importance of preserving the history, it enables the younger generation to know about that period and to avoid the bad way. In general, there will be a 100% or perfect society. Thus, those lived through the regime must dare to speak out to let us write history for the younger generation. I heard that there will a balance between peace, national reconciliation and justice. Justice need peace and vice versa.

Im

Yes.

So

Were you interviewed about your story before, or have or only Cambodians conducted interviews with you?

Im

Yes, both foreigners and Khmer. They asked me about the Khmer Rouge regime like you did. The story was to write a fiction or make a true story. That was the purpose of those interviews. They said they did not know that women know such a true story.

Vanthan

They all wanted to know about the Khmer Rouge regime too. As I said, the period has a gap that’s why they wish to know about it. The Khmer Rouge’s governing structure between 75 and 79 was secret. Without information from those who lived through the regime or those who worked for it, it must be hard to understand because the younger generation did not live through it.

Im

Yes, in other words, I rethink about myself during that period. I worked during the period. Other people had worked before me. I was the successor. And, others took over from me. There needs to be an understanding of each succession, but not to conclude that the regime was this or that bad.

Before I arrived in Preah Net Preah district, people had been arrested. They were afraid. Hearing the sound of a car motor, they went into hiding. Upon my arrival, I walked alone and visited them as usual. However, outsiders did not realize that. They said under Yeay Chem’s control in the district, this and that people died, this parents or relatives suffered from this or that. That was that. After that, the Vietnamese arrived; they are good. But I am the predecessor, who is bad? That’s why a factual story is based on practical things. We could not reach any conclusion….

Vanthan

Yes, I will try to meet those who had the responsibility before your arrival.

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Yes. If I could meet with them, I would ask the same questions I did you. However, I do not know how I can find them. If you have any information, I can go and meet with them.

Im

Go and meet with those villagers there.

Vanthan

Yes.

Im

To meet with the villagers whom I was asked to arrest.

Vanthan

Yes, if there is a name of that person, it would be good.

Im

Stay in Chup in the meantime.

So

Chup in Kampong Cham province.

Im

Chup in Svay Siphon.

Ly

What is the name?

Im

His name is Sokh.

Ly

Surname?

Im

I do not know.

Ly

Male or female?

Im

Male. His wife is Pi.

So

What does he do now?

Im

Ordinary person. He followed me when we reintegrated into the government.

Noy

What is his village?

Im

His home village is Phnom Leap.

Ly

Is he now living in Phnom Leap?

Im

No, he lives in Chup.

Ly

In Chup?

Noy

In which sub-district is Chup located?

Im

Chup village.

Vanthan

Chup sub-district.

Im

Preah Net Preah sub-district.

Vanthan

Preah Net Preah sub-district, Svay Sophon district?

Im

Preah Net Preah district.

Ly

Preah Net Preah. Is it in Banteay Meanchey?

Vanthan

Banteay Meanchey. At that time, he was a village chief. He was able to survive with my help. That was the time I took over from others.

Ly

Did he visit you often?

Im

No. Previously, Her Excellency came…

Vanthan

How many groups of interviewers like us have come?

Im

Every year.

Vanthan

Every year?

Im

Yes.

Ly

Our group came at the beginning of this year, 2007.

Im

Yes. This year, your group came; last year they were finding me while I was in Phnom Penh.

Vanthan

Where were they from?

Im

Yes.

Ly

Were they journalists or research institutes? Who were they?

Im

Research institutes.

Noy

Do you know where they are from?

Im

I did not know. Last year, it seemed that they were from…

Vanthan

Canada, America, Germany, France…

Im

[Laughs]

Ly

Those who have white eyes?

Im

[Laughing] yes, they were.

Noy

French.

Im

Both French and English.