Interview with Iep Keav

Sopheak

What is your name?

Iep Keav

Iep Keav

Sopheak

How old are you?

Iep Keav

69

Sopheak

Where were you born?

 Iep Keav

Tapaunt village, Taing Krasao subdistrict, Prasat Sambo district, Kampong Cham Province

Sopheak

How many siblings do you have?

 Iep Keav

Three.

Sopheak

What is your position in your family?

 Iep Keav

Second

Sopheak

And what is the name of the eldest?

 Iep Keav

Iep Ieng.

Sopheak

Man or woman?

 Iep Keav

Woman

Sopheak

And what about the third?

 Iep Keav

Iep Tanchung (male).

Sopheak

What is your husband’s name?

 Iep Keav

Peang Voir.

Sopheak

And how many children do you have?

 Iep Keav

12.

Sopheak

How many boys and how many girls?

 Iep Keav

7 girls and 5 boys.

Sopheak

In this picture, what is the name of the boy on the left?

 Iep Keav

Ing Vannak

Sopheak

And what was his position in the family?

 Iep Keav

The eldest.

Sopheak

Who was the second?

 Iep Keav

Ing Chanthou. She is dead. I have six children who are still alive.

Sopheak

I would like you to tell me about Vannak

 Iep Keav

First, Ing Vannak studied at Kampong Thom until grade 5. When the coup d’etat happened, he gave up studying. But he still graduated from school. I don’t know what grade he finished. He was nearly finished when the coup occurred.

Sopheak

When he gave up his studies, where did he go?

 Iep Keav

He didn’t go anywhere because of the coup.

Sopheak

So, did he come back home?

 Iep Keav

Yes. He went with his father.

Sopheak

Where did he go with his father?

 Iep Keav

He joined the revolution with his father.

Sopheak

When?

 Iep Keav

I don’t know. I don’t want to think about it. When I think about it, I cry.

Sopheak

You said that he went with his father. Where did they go?

 Iep Keav

To join the revolution. They joined at Tasou [struggle] Market.

Sopheak

Where is this place?

 Iep Keav

At Tapreach village, Taing Krasaing subdistrict.

Sopheak

After Vannak joined the revolution, did he visit home?

 Iep Keav

Yes, in 1976.  After that, he disappeared

Sopheak

When he visited, what did he say to you?

 Iep Keav

No, he went to Phnom Penh. I was there too, so we visited home together. The first time we left the village (with Vannak and my mother) during the revolution, we went to Chamka O Russei plantation in Kampong Cham.  After that, we went to 0-2, then to Sre Veal.

Sopheak

Why did Vannak go to 0-2 with his father?

 Iep Keav

To plant vegetables and take photos over there.

Sopheak

How did he take the photos?

 Iep Keav

He took them for his unit. He took photos of the plantation, too.

Sopheak

When did he go to 0-2?

 Iep Keav

I don’t know. I forgot. After 0-2, he went to Phnom Penh. He lived in Central Market.  He took photos there and many other places. Angkar sent him to take photos in many places.

Sopheak

When he went to Phnom Penh, did he visit home?

 Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

And how do you know that he went to Phnom Penh?

 Iep Keav

I went there too. I stayed at Tuol Kork. They assigned me to take care of children. Then they sent me to Chak Ang Re in Ta Kmau. When I stayed there, I nearly died.

Sopheak

Why did you nearly die?

 Iep Keav

The Khmer Rouge put prisoners that they wanted to kill to a truck. They almost put me in the truck as well, but friends in my unit helped me. I had a fishing pole in my hand, and they tried to catch me. My unit said, “Don’t catch her.” So, they pulled the fishing pole out of my hands and threw it into the water. And then they sent me to the reeducation center.

Sopheak

When she went to Phnom Penh, how did you know that Vannak was taking photos?

 Iep Keav

Yes, they took photos in the office. His father took them, too.

Sopheak

Where did he take photos?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

When you were in Phnom Penh, did anyone take a photo of you and Vannak?

Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

Where did they take this photo?

Iep Keav

In Phnom Penh?

Sopheak

Where?

Iep Keav

Wat Phnom.

Sopheak

Which one is your son?

Iep Keav

He’s the one on the left.

Sopheak

Who is the man on the right?

Iep Keav

His name was Leang.

Sopheak

Do you know where he was from?

Iep Keav

He was from Kampong Thom. At first, he took photos at Long Market in Kampong Thom.

Sopheak

Did Leang work with your son?

Iep Keav

Yes. He worked with my son in O-5.

Sopheak

When was this photo taken?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

Was this taken after the Lon Nol regime collapsed?

 Iep Keav

He took this photo after he left the village, around 1975 or 1976. Then he came back.

Sopheak

You said that you went to Ta Kamau. What did you do there?

Iep Keav

I planted chilies and eggplant, and longen fruit.

Sopheak

Did Vannak stay with you at Ta Kamau?

Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

So, where was Vannak at that time?

Iep Keav

He was in Phnom Penh.

Sopheak

Why did you go to Ta Kamau?

Iep Keav

They sent me there because they caught my husband.

Sopheak

Why did they arrest him?

Iep Keav

They put my husband into a truck. I don’t know where. Then they sent me from Tuol Kork to Ta Kamau

Sopheak

What did you do when you stayed at Tuol Kork?

Iep Keav

I took care of small children.

Sopheak

What was that work like?

Iep Keav

When the mothers went out to work, I took care of them at the children’s center.

Sopheak

Is Leang still alive?

Iep Keav

He disappeared.

Sopheak

Did he disappear with your son?

Iep Keav

No. With his friend. He disappeared in Sihanoukville, but my son disappeared in Phnom Penh.

Sopheak

How do you know what happened to Leang?

Iep Keav

Because at first we worked together and a man I knew (the husband of Don) took a photo there, too. Don asked Leang to work with him in Sihanoukville. He said Leang could learn how to develop film and become the best photographer. After that, they took them away and they disappeared. There was a man named Pan who told me that they [the Khmer Rouge] killed them.

Sopheak

Did you know Pan?

Iep Keav

Yes, because he joined the revolution too.

Sopheak

Was he a photographer, too?

Iep Keav

No. He volunteered to join the revolution and when he came back he said Leang had been killed. I thought Pan had been killed, too, and I was surprised to see him.

Sopheak

When did you leave the village?

Iep Keav

I don’t know. The Khmer Rouge took over Kampong Thom maybe around 1975.

Sopheak

Were you evacuated or did you choose to leave?

Iep Keav

They said anyone who had a husband was a Khmer Rouge cadre must go live with their husband.

Sopheak

When you left, had the Khmer Rouge already taken over Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

Yes. And they sent me to live with my husband. I said I didn’t want to go there. They said because you are the wife of a soldier, you have to go. I asked the people who came for me what I should bring. “It’s up to you,” they said. I gave a sewing machine, cloth, a Philips radio, a motorbike and my house to Angkar. After I left, my house was destroyed.  As I was leaving the house, I cried because I knew I would miss it.

Sopheak

You said Vannak was a photographer in Phnom Penh. Where was his office?

Iep Keav

I don’t know. They did not allow me to visit my son.

Sopheak

So, you weren’t living together with your family in Phnom Penh.

Iep Keav

No, they separated my husband and son from me. But my small son lived with me and I took care of him in the children’s center in Tuol Kork.

Sopheak

Where did Vannak live?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

Did he visit you?

Iep Keav

Never.

Sopheak

When he was in Phnom Penh, did he visit you?

Iep Keav

No, never.

Sopheak

And what about your husband?

Iep Keav

My husband was at Kor 3 with Ta Koun

Sopheak

Who is Ta Koun?

Iep Keav

He was the chief of Kor 3.

Sopheak

What kind of chief was he?

Iep Keav

I don’t know. At first he worked with Thuc [chief of Khmer Rouge arts]. When he stopped working for Thuc, he went to Kor 3.

Sopheak

When did you lose touch with Vannak?

Iep Keav

When the Vietnamese came, I didn’t hear any more about my son or my husband.

Sopheak

When your husband worked with Thuc, what was his position?

Iep Keav

He was a photographer and tailor.

Sopheak

Who was he a tailor for?

Iep Keav

For Pol Pot [Khmer Rouge soldiers]

Sopheak

When did your son join the revolution?

Iep Keav

1974

Sopheak

How old was he when he joined?

Iep Keav

16

Sopheak

He joined with his father?

Iep Keav

No. He joined alone. His father joined first and Vannak joined next.

Sopheak

Was he recruited to join?

Iep Keav

No, he volunteered. When he left, a neighbor named Chab said that he should not go because your father has already left and your mother has a lot of small children. He should stay and help the family. But left anyway.

Sopheak

He went to Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

After he left the village, did he visit home?

Iep Keav

Yes. One time, then he came back again. In 1976, he came back the second time with me. We stayed two or three nights and went back to Phnom Penh.

Sopheak

The first time he visited home, did he tell you anything?

Iep Keav

Nothing.

Sopheak

How long did he stay?

Iep Keav

I don’t remember.

Sopheak

Where did he go back to?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

The first time he came back to the village, did he take you with him when he left?

Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

And why do you have this photo? [shows a picture of young women]

Iep Keav

That photo isn’t mine.

Sopheak

Why do you have the photo of your son and Leang?

Iep Keav

Someone gave it to me, so I kept it.

Sopheak

Who gave it to you?

Iep Keav

My son, Vannak.

Sopheak

Did he give this to you when he was living in Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

Yes.

Sopheak

How did you keep it?

Iep Keav

I kept it in a trunk.

Sopheak

When did he give it to you?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

You said that you went to Phnom Penh. Did your family leave Phnom Penh to visit home in 1976?

Iep Keav

Yes.

Sopheak

So, when the Khmer Rouge took over Kampong Thom, did all of your family go to Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

Yes

Sopheak

Did you meet your son in Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

Yes

Sopheak

Where did you meet?

Iep Keav

At Central Market.

Sopheak

How did you meet him?

Iep Keav

The Khmer Rouge assigned us to a meeting place at Central Market. In 1976 I visited home, I asked Vannak to come with me. We came in a car; Vannak drove.

Sopheak

How many people were in the car?

Iep Keav

Six including me.

Sopheak

So you had a lot of people in the car?

Iep Keav

Yes

Sopheak

How long did you stay in the village?

Iep Keav

Three of four days.

Sopheak

Did all of you come back to Phnom Penh together?

Iep Keav

Yes

Sopheak

When you came back, did you meet each other?

Iep Keav

No. Never.

Sopheak

Did you have any other information about Vannak?

Iep Keav

No, never. Nothing until the Khmer Rouge collapsed.

Chhay

When all of you came to the village, did you have a photo taken together?

Iep Keav

No.

Chhay

He didn’t bring a camera with him?

Iep Keav

No.

Chhay

When you returned to Phnom Penh, where did Vannak work?

Iep Keav

He worked for Angkar, but I don’t know where.

Chhay

Did Vannak ever tell you where he worked?

Iep Keav

If he told me, I don’t remember.

Chhay

When you returned to Phnom Penh, where did you stay?

Iep Keav

In Tuol Kork, the place where I took care of children.

Chhay

And now, do you know whether your son is alive or dead?

Iep Keav

I don’t know; I never had any information about him again

Chhay

And what about the other people in his unit? Are they still alive?

Iep Keav

In this village, there were no people who worked for him.

Sopheak

I want to ask you again. You said that while you were in Phnom Penh, your son was separated from you. Why did he come with you to visit the village?

Iep Keav

We lived separately, but I asked his boss and his boss agreed. Vannak could drive a car.

Sopheak

Do you mean that he drove to pick you up at Tuol Kork?

Iep Keav

At that time, I was not in Tuol Kork, I was in Boeung Samyab [also in Phnom Penh]. He picked me up there.

Sopheak

You said you had met him at Central Market?

Iep Keav

That was later.

Sopheak

So, you met him twice?

Iep Keav

Yes.

Sopheak

What was the food like in Phnom Penh?

Iep Keav

They gave us bread to eat.

Sopheak

Was there enough food?

Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

Did you have holidays?

Iep Keav

Yes on the 10^th, 20^th, and 30^th of each month.

Sopheak

Why these days?

Iep Keav

I don’t know. But they let us rest. They let us eat rice on these days, too.

Sopheak

How do you feel when you look at these photos?

Iep Keav

Nothing.

Sopheak

When you see these photos again, how do you feel about losing your husband and son?

Iep Keav

I miss them.

Sopheak

Do you think he is still alive?

Iep Keav

No, I don’t think so because it’s been over 20 years now.

Sopheak

Have you made a ceremony for him?

Iep Keav

Yes, a few. I only have a little money.

Sopheak

What do you think about the Khmer Rouge regime?

Iep Keav

I don’t know.

Sopheak

Have you done anything to reduce your grief over losing your family?

Iep Keav

I don’t know. I just have a ceremony for them. I want to have a big ceremony, but it costs too much money. [cries]

Sopheak

Nowadays, do you tell your stories to your other children?

Iep Keav

Yes.

Sopheak

What did you tell them?

Iep Keav

Just speaking generally and simply. But I don’t talk to them about it any more. I just wish to make a ceremony for them.

Sopheak

When you talk to your children, do they believe you?

Iep Keav

Yes, they believe me because they also lived in the Khmer Rouge times.

Sopheak

Oh, they were all born when the Khmer Rouge took over?

Iep Keav

Yes, but they were too small to remember.

Sopheak

Do you have anything more to say?

Iep Keav

No.

Sopheak

Thank you for telling us your story.

Interview with Voir Lim Thou (daughter of Iep Keav, age 45)

Sopheak

Do you know where this photo was taken [shows the photo of the two young men]

Lim Thou  

At Wat Phnom

Sopheak

Which one is your brother?

Lim Thou

The one who is standing

Sopheak

What was his name?

Lim Thou

Vannak

Sopheak

Who is the other guy?

Lim Thou

Some called him Leang and some called him Lieng

Sopheak

Do you know where he came from?

Lim Thou

Leang was a photographer before, then he went to work in Phnom Penh

Sopheak

How did you know him?

Lim Thou

I visited his office

Sopheak

Where did he work?

Lim Thou

At first he worked at Phsar Chas (the old market) near the river in Phnom Penh.

Sopheak

Did he work with your brother?

Lim Thou

Yes. At the Ministry of Commerce. After that, he was sent to the Ministry of Propaganda and Information, where he worked as a photographer.

Sopheak

Where was it?

Lim Thou

I never visited that ministry.

Sopheak

But you heard of it?

Lim Thou

I don’t know, but I think he worked at the radio tower.

Sopheak

Maybe in Tuol Kork?

Lim Thou

I don’t know but I do know that it was a radio tower.

Sopheak

Did you ever meet Vannak in Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

Since 1977, I have never met him.

Sopheak

So, did you see him in 1975 or 1976?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

Where did you meet?

Lim Thou

At the old market and Central Market

Sopheak

When you met, what did he say?

Lim Thou

He just talked about everyday things.

Sopheak

And what about the second time you met?

Lim Thou

The second time we met at Central Market. He just asked me where I was going.

Sopheak

When he took this picture, was anyone else with him?

Lim Thou

I don’t know.

Sopheak

It was taken in 1976?

Lim Thou

I don’t remember. It may have been in 1976 because we were still free to move about. But by 1977, we weren’t allowed to go anywhere.

Sopheak

Why do you have this photo?

Lim Thou

My mother kept it.

Sopheak

So, when this photo was taken, he gave it to your mother?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

While he was in Phnom Penh, did he take a photo with his family?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

Where was it taken?

Lim Thou

At the old market.

Sopheak

Where is the photo now?

Lim Thou

I don’t know. PERHAPS VISIT HER AGAIN TO ASK ABOUT THE PHOTO

Sopheak

How many photos were taken?

Lim Thou

Maybe two. He was allowed to take the photographs because the film was near the end of the roll and he needed to develop the pictures.

Sopheak

Did he develop the film himself?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

Did he ever tell you how he developed the film?

Lim Thou

No. It was difficult.

Sopheak

Where did he learn how to develop film?

Lim Thou

Leang taught him; he was the best photographer.

Sopheak

Oh, he learned from Leang?

Lim Thou

Yes and my father could develop film, too. And he was chief of the photography unit and the chief tailor.

Sopheak

Did he make clothes?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

What grade did Vannak reach in school?

Lim Thou

Grade 5 in Kampong Thom.

Sopheak

After he finished school, where did he go?

Lim Thou

He joined the Khmer Rouge. He was a trainer at Svay Sraeng until 1974.

Sopheak

What did he teach?

Lim Thou

He trained elementary school students.

Sopheak

So, he was a teacher?

Lim Thou

Yes. In 1973 or 1974, they assigned him to teach there.

Sopheak

Who assigned him?

Lim Thou

I don’t know. After he finished teaching, the joined the Khmer Rouge revolution.

Sopheak

When did he join?

Lim Thou

1973

Sopheak

After he joined, did he come back home?

Lim Thou

Yes. Just for a simple visit. He came and went.

Sopheak

When he came, did he say anything.

Lim Thou

No. My siblings never discussed what their lives were like.

Sopheak

So, your siblings never talked to each other?

Lim Thou

Yes, they never talked. They just came and went.

Sopheak

After Vannak joined the Khmer Rouge, did he tell you where he went?

Lim Thou

No, he never told me. He visited home often, but I never asked him.

Sopheak

When he visited home, what was he wearing?

Lim Thou

The black.

Sopheak

How did he come home?

Lim Thou

Walking. The car let him off in Kampong Thom and he walked from there. [this was in 1973 or 1974]

Sopheak

And when did he return to Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

April 1975

Sopheak

When he went back to Phnom Penh, did someone order him to go back?

Lim Thou

No. All ministry employees had to go to Phnom Penh, like medical and tailor staff, and workers.

Sopheak

Was this before or after the Khmer Rouge took over?

Lim Thou

After.

Sopheak

When he went to Phnom Penh, did he visit home?

Lim Thou

Yes. All of our family went to Phnom Penh.

Sopheak

When he visited home, what was he wearing.

Lim Thou

Black. That was all he wore.

Sopheak

Did he bring anything with him?

Lim Thou

No.

Sopheak

How did he come?

Lim Thou

Car

Sopheak

How many people were in the car?

Lim Thou

There were a lot.

Sopheak

What kind of car was it?

Lim Thou

I don’t know.

Sopheak

Did the car stop in front of your house?

Lim Thou

No, it stopped at the provincial capital and he walked from there.

Sopheak

When did you go to Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

1975

Sopheak

Did you go at the same time as Vannak?

Lim Thou

Yes, we went together by car.

Sopheak

Did he bring you with him?

Lim Thou

No. The ministry sent me.

Sopheak

Do you mean that you went with your brother?

Lim Thou

No. The ministry sent me; I didn’t go with him.

Sopheak

Which ministry did you work for?

Lim Thou

I worked in the office in Opei village.

Sopheak

Which office?

Lim Thou

In Kampong Cham. It was a reeducation center [she was a KR cadre]. I cultivated crops. My brother Vannak was in Chamka Leu.

Sopheak

Oh, he went to Chamka Leu?

Lim Thou

Yes. Chamka Leu in Kampong Chang.

Sopheak

What did he do there?

Lim Thou

He was a photographer.

Sopheak

And when did he stay in Chamka Leu?

Lim Thou

In 1974.

Sopheak

You said he joined the Khmer Rouge in 1973 and was sent to Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

No, in 1973, he had not gone to Phnom Penh. He joined the Khmer Rouge and he stayed with his unit. We worked for different ministries. My brother worked at Chamka Leu, I worked at Trapeang Speu, and my mother at Opei until 1975. In that year, Vannak went to Phnom Penh. Later that year, I went there too.

Sopheak

Where did you stay in Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

I was in a mobile group.

Sopheak

Where was the mobile group.

Lim Thou

At the old market, near the Bank.

Sopheak

And what about your mother?

Lim Thou

My mother was at the old market too, but she had different work.

Sopheak

Did you often meet with your mother and Vannak?

Lim Thou

No. We worked at different ministries.

Sopheak

Did Vannak ever visit you in Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

Yes, when he had free time, he visited for a little while. But he always visited my mother. He only came to see me once.

Sopheak

Did you ever go to visit him?

Lim Thou

At his unit, never. His unit was a youth militia. He just visited my mother.

Sopheak

He visited often?

Lim Thou

Yeah. He visited on the holidays: the 10^th, 20^th, and 30^th.

Sopheak

Why were these days holidays?

Lim Thou

I don’t know. It was like a Sunday.

Sopheak

Did someone announce that these days were holidays?

Lim Thou

It was a holiday.

Sopheak

Do you know the reason?

Lim Thou

I don’t know, but in each month, we had three days. But on these days, we didn’t stop working completely. But we did less difficult jobs. For example, we might work as porters, but on the holidays, we would work gathering grass.

Sopheak

So, your workload was reduced?

Lim Thou

Yes.

Sopheak

And what about the food?

Lim Thou

We ate at 11 am.

Sopheak

Was it enough?

Lim Thou

No, it wasn’t enough. We had a half loaf of bread.

Sopheak

So, after 1977, you never heard anything about your brother?

Lim Thou

Yes. When I visited my mother, I never saw him. My mother said “don’t think about him any more.”

Sopheak

When did you lose information about him?

Lim Thou

February 1977 when I visited my mother. Maybe I lost him on this date. While I visited, my mother was pregnant. My mother wanted to go outside, so I asked her where. She replied, “You didn’t know? Your father has disappeared from the hospital.” So, I went to the hospital. Its name was K-9.

Sopheak

Where was the hospital?

Lim Thou

At Doem Kor market.

Sopheak

Why did you go to the hospital?

Lim Thou

To see my father.

Sopheak

After 1977, did you hear anything about Vannak?

Lim Thou

I asked a person who worked in his unit about Vannak. I was in the re-education center at Chamka Leu at that time. He said my brother had been put into an Akhami truck.

Sopheak

What is an Akhami?

Lim Thou

It’s like a truck with a closed bed. I think that if they put him into the truck, he died.

Sopheak

Did you ever look for him?

Lim Thou

No.

Sopheak

When he was put in the truck, were you sad?

Lim Thou

Yes. It was hopeless to find him.

Sopheak

And do you think he’s still alive or not?

Lim Thou

No, I have no hope that he’s alive. If he were alive, he would have come home.

Sopheak

How do you feel when you see this photo again?

Lim Thou

I miss him. He was the only brother in my family.

Sopheak

Do you feel sorry?

Lim Thou

Yes because he was my brother. When I was starving, all I wanted to do was reunite with my family.

M-T

How many siblings do you have?

Lim Thou

Seven alive LOOK UP WHO DIED IN THE PA FILE

Sopheak

What position did Vannak have in the family?

Lim Thou

The eldest

M-T

Who was second?

Lim Thou

Me. The third was Lim Tha and the fourth was Bunna. The fifth was Bunnoir and the sixth was Bunneav and the seventh Reaksmey. We had men, too, but they died.

M-T

Where was Vannak born?

Lim Thou

At this village.

M-T

What was his character like?

Lim Thou

He was a serious person.

M-T

Did he get married in Phnom Penh?

Lim Thou

No, he was single.

M-T

You said your father disappeared in February. And what about your brother?

Lim Thou

Vannak disappeared around July 1977.

M-T

When Vannak came back to the village, he never said anything?

Lim Thou

A little. But he never argued with anyone.

M-T

Was he a kind man or a mean one?

Lim Thou

In the middle.

M-T

What do you think Vannak’s character was like?

Lim Thou

He never argued with his siblings. He never joked, either. He was a gentle man.

M-T

When he came to the village, did he help his parents?

Lim Thou

Yes. He was a perfect man.

M-T

What work did he do?

Lim Thou

He never complained about the work he had to do. When he saw me washing the dishes, he always offered to do them himself.

M-T

What about the farm, did help there.

Lim Thou

Never. He was busy studying.

M-T

What sort of games did he like as a child?

Lim Thou

I don’t remember.

Iep Keav

He always watched people repair motorbikes. He liked it a lot. He also liked to repair radios. When he saw his father repairing radios, he never went anywhere; he just stayed and watched until his father finished.

Lim Thou

I don’t want to show off. I’m telling the truth. He learned all this without having a teacher. He just watched and could do it, just like his father.

Sopheak

Could he repair watches, clocks and tvs? How could he do this?

Lim Thou

He could do it just by watching. He didn’t need a teacher

M-T

When Vannak went to Phnom Penh in 1975 at first, what did he do?

Lim Thou

The same. A photographer.

M-T

Who did he work for?

Lim Thou

The local Ministry of Commerce. Later, he was sent to the Ministry of Education.

M-T

Where was his office?

Lim Thou

At the Ministry of Education.

M-T

Where was it located?

Lim Thou

I don’t know.

M-T

When did he change jobs?

Lim Thou

In 1976

M-T

When he visited his mother, how did he come

Lim Thou

Same answer as before.

M-T

What about your father?  Where did he work? Did you see him more often than Vannak?

Lim Thou

I saw my father often.

M-T

He came to Phnom Penh before Vannak or after?

Lim Thou

He went before.

M-T

In his confession, it was stated that he worked for the government as a tailor.

Lim Thou

Yes. He worked at O’Russei Market. But I don’t know what his position was.

Sopheak

How long did you study?

Lim Thou

Grade 8

Sopheak

Which school?

Lim Thou

Taing Krasao.

Sopheak

How old are you now?

Lim Thou

45

Sopheak

When were you born?

Lim Thou

1959

Sopheak

What is your name?

Lim Thou

Voir Lim Thou

Sopheak

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

PA Interview (Dara and Sin Khin) with Iep Keav (2002)

Iep

Since the Sihanouk regime, my husband (Peang Voir ) was working with the king. When the coup d’etat occurred, he stopped smoking cigarettes in remembrance of the king. His picture was taken with the king in front of the cow stable at the royal palace. The king gave my husband a medal.

PA

Why did the king give him a medal?

Iep

I don’t know, but I just saw his photo. After that, the coup occurred. He was so sad and worried about the king. He didn’t smoke, he didn’t sleep. After the coup, the country was in turmoil. We made rice in preparation. Someone accused me, but I just said I was making rice as I always did. Just normally. My son [Vannak] was studying in Kampong Thom then.

PA

Who was studying in Kampong Thom?

Iep

Vannak. But during the Khmer Rouge regime, he was called Sae.

PA

He was the eldest son?

Iep

Yes.

PA

What is your name and when were you born?

Iep

Iep Keav. I’m 67. I was born in the year of the rat [1936]

PA

Can you tell me about your husband? What do you remember about him?

Iep

During the KR regime, my husband had contact with the Vietnamese who were joining with the Khmer Rouge.

PA

The Viet Kong?

Iep

Yes. He was in contact with them for the village’s security. We didn’t want the fighting to come here. There was fighting across this district. The district chief was named Pang. When there was fighting, he said, he wouldn’t give up and would prevail. But my husband said that he didn’t want any fighting. So, Meng, the deputy district chief, evacuated my husband from the village. When the Khmer Rouge came, the Khmer Rouge were successful at Toek Andaung village [during KR, the village was in Prek Kdei district].

PA

When?

Iep

I don’t know the year. After the Khmer Rouge were successful in this village, they had him come back. They made him the district chief.

PA

Who? Your husband? What district?

Iep

Yes. Prek Kdei district. But now, the district chief is In Neung and Pan. The district today is Prasat Sambo. And when he went to Sandan, the district chief was named Sorn (my husband’s cousin). My husband talked a long time with Sorn and told him that he didn’t want fighting. Sorn agreed. So when they [the KR?] came, we just raised our hands and surrendered.

PA

At this time, was your husband in the Khmer Rouge?

Iep

Yes.

PA

There was fighting at Sandan? Was it successful?

Iep

Yes.

PA

Did they have your husband lead Sandan?

Iep

Yes.

PA

What happened next?

Iep

After that, when Pol Pot was coming, he lived apart from his wife and children. I was very sad because the children were so small.

PA

At that time, how many children did you have?

Iep

12. I had 10 before the Khmer Rouge. Later, I had two in Phnom Penh.

PA

Did you go to Phnom Penh?

Iep

Yes. In 1975, they took me to Phnom Penh. Ta Thuc (Koy Thun, the chief of the Ministry of Culture) sent me there.

PA

Did your family have a connection with Ta Thuc?

Iep

Yes.

PA

Did you stay with your family in Phnom Penh?

Iep

Yes.

PA

What was your husband doing?

Iep

He was a tailor. He made patterns and he was skilled at sewing. He also took photos. When the foreigners came, they had him take pictures. After that, he was a tailor.  He made clothes for the Chinese.

PA

Before, what did he do?

Iep

He was a small vendor.

PA

When did he receive the medal?

Iep

1964.

PA

Where did he receive the medal?

Iep

In Kampong Thom province.

PA

Had he been studying like an intellectual?

Iep

He didn’t do anything, but he had a connection. So, the district chiefs knew him and he made friends.

PA

So, did he do good work to help the country?

Iep

Yes. He built the country; that’s why the king gave him a medal. He never tried to profit from it.

PA

When you went to Phnom Penh, did you stay with your family?

Iep

Yes. I lived at Daem Kor market; there was a children’s unit there.

PA

Did you work there?

Iep

Yes. I took care of children, but my husband worked as a tailor at Central Market.

PA

Did you meet him often?

Iep

No. During Pol Pot, we met only when they allowed us to meet. We had different jobs. I didn’t know when my husband disappeared. And when I lost him, someone asked me what I did when I lost him. I said that I didn’t know whether he had gone against Angkar. It was up to Angkar to pity him or not.

PA

Did you know your husband had disappeared? When did he disappear?

Iep

I don’t know; I heard from someone that they put him in a car that went to the west. At that time, I was at Daem Kor market. Someone told me had gone to another place, but not where.

PA

At this time, were your children living with you?

Iep

Yes, but only those who were very small. The teenagers lived separately from me.

PA

How many children lived with you?

Iep

Three or four.  They were Bunna, Bunnoir, Bunneav, and Reaksmey.

PA

When you worked at the children’s unit, were you children there, too?

Iep

Yes. But I took care of boys. Someone else took care of the girls. The girls were at different houses.

PA

Where did the children come from?

Iep

Some came from a place called the Kbal Damrei [Elephant’s Head]. They stayed in Daem Kor. I sewed clothes for the children to wear. I bathed them too and fed them rice and porridge.

PA

Did all the children meet their fathers in the evening?

Iep

No. Their parents went to work and the children stayed there all the time.  When their parents could, they came to visit their children. But they could visit only a short time. The children could only go to visit there parents rarely; at that time, Angkar made us responsible for the children.

PA

What about the food?

Iep

At first, it wasn’t reported clearly. But later, they had a car and brought fish for us.

PA

What were the ages of the children you cared for?

Iep

The youngest were about 1 to 3 years and the oldest about 6. If they beat them, the parent’s wouldn’t know. My daughter Bunna was accused of stealing cloth. My daughter said she hadn’t stolen it. So they pushed her from a ladder and didn’t give her any food for two or three days.

PA

When you took care of the boys, did you see their parents stealing a look at their children?

Iep

If you had permission, you could look. If not, you could not. When the children were sick, we told the group leader.

PA

How many children were there in the unit?

Iep

A lot. I forgot how many.

PA

How did you know that your husband had been arrested?

Iep

A man who stayed nearby transported materiel and food for the children to eat. He told me. I couldn’t cry in front of him. If I cried, I would have died too.  I didn’t know where they took him, but he was told he was going to training.

PA

Did the Khmer Rouge look for you and your children from his biography?

Iep

No, they didn’t ask me anything. But later, they asked my children, niece/nephew.  The children said that they saw him put into a Jeep.

PA

This was in Phnom Penh?

Iep

Yes. At Kampong Kantuot. They took him to Kampong Kantout school. They closed everything; they put boards on the wall, and put broken glass on top of the wall. No one could see inside or get in. I rode there on a bicycle to find out what happened to my husband. But no one would tell me anything. I didn’t dare ask them about my husband. If they worked in my group and they asked me where he was, I would say I didn’t know. I might say he went to work or to training; he may be coming back some day.

PA

What was your niece/nephew’s name?

Iep

Lot.  I was very disappointed when he told me. But I couldn’t express any feeling; I didn’t dare say anything.

Later, while I was taking care of the boys, the Khmer Rouge took me, too. They had a car and drove up to the front of the children’s unit. In the early morning, I cooked porridge for the children. I had called them to come and eat, saying it was delicious. I cooked it in a big pot and was dishing it up. At that moment, someone called me to get into the car. I had no feeling. I thought it someone was going to take me, it would be up to Angkar.

At this time, I was pregnant. Someone told me to pack my bags, and I replied that I didn’t want to take anything, like warm clothes, rice, or mosquito net. Or medicine. They then said I was going to a reeducation unit, so I should take medicine and a bottle of wine to the unit. They prodded me to take clothes and a mosquito net. I replied that I didn’t need these things anymore.

So they took mosquito nets, medicine and some medicinal plants (to use for women who had just given birth) and put them in the car for me.  My daughter Reaksmey had been in the hospital. They asked me where she was. I replied that if I was going, I wanted to take my daughter with me. They told me to go first, that my daughter would be going later. So, they went and got my daughter and dropped her at Central Market. They continued driving.

When we reached Ta Kmau (the re-education center) there was someone who was angry with me. They asked me why I didn’t bring my daughter with me? I replied that I would ask the group chief when my daughter was coming. They said that she would come at 3. She did come at 3. Then I saw that my daughter was sick. After 4 or 5 days, someone said that I should take her to the hospital because they had no doctor at the re-education center. I said it was up to the comrades, but you should tell me if she gets better or not. Because when she was in the hospital at Phnom Penh, she had symptoms on her body and they told me she was losing blood. So, they had given her a transfusion. If they hadn’t given her blood, she would have died. Four or five days later, I was able to visit her. When I arrived there, I saw that someone had changed her clothes; she was wearing white for an operation. When I left, they told me that my daughter was better, and then they brought her to Ta Kmau. After 4 or 5 days in Ta Kmau, they told me to take her back to Phnom Penh because she was still sick.

PA

Is Reaksmey still alive?

Iep

Yes.

PA

And later on, what happened?

Iep

They took Reaksmey. After that, I gave birth at Prek Pra [in Phnom Penh – obviously she left the re-education center]. Four months after giving birth, they sent me to Sleng village in Kandal Steung subdistrict, Kandal province.

PA

Did you stay there until the regime collapsed?

Iep

When I reached Kandal, they sent me to another place. I don’t remember the name. My daughter was sick [we don’t know which daughter]. My teenage daughter came too. They came with me because I asked them to take my daughters in the car with me. My youngest child was sick because I didn’t have any breast milk. So I cooked porridge with salt and a little sugar to give her to drink when she was hungry. When she was 8 months old, they gave here Chinese and French medicine and she had a reaction.  Ten days later, she was dead. I buried her.

PA

Then where did you go?

Iep

They sent me to Thlok Koa. It was very hard to live there. One day someone would be alive and the next, dead. It was the same at Prek Pra. When the Jeep came, I held my baby son close to my chest and I didn’t dare to eat. On the 10^th, they gave us rice to eat. When the Jeeps came to take the people away, we didn’t dare to eat, so we had plenty of rice to eat.

PA

When they put the people in the cars, did they come back?

Iep

No. When they put them in the car, they would probably die. I didn’t know where they took them. I was so tired. My children were tired too. We had a fishing pole for fishing. There were a lot of fish.

When my friend Mao saw that I had a fishing pole, he pulled it from my hand. He asked me what I was doing. He said he had warned me already and threw it into a clump of bamboo. This was because comrade Chhan had been fishing and when the Khmer Rouge saw this, they took his whole family away. He had only been there five days. He was a good singer. I told him that I was only trying to find fish. The people in the unit pitied me, so they protected me.

When we had porridge, we had two kinds. One was simple with a lot of water, but my friend gave me porridge that had a lot of rice in it. That made me very happy. When they saw me fishing, they took the pole and broke it in half, so I could not find fish.

My daughter Bunnoir had measles. I didn’t know how to help her, so I asked for medicine. But she didn’t get any better. Then I asked for coconut from Comrade Sieng. I had this coconut for maybe 2 or 3 days and then I cut it open. I put worms into the coconut water and wanted my daughter to drink it [without the worms]. But then I didn’t dare give it to her because I was afraid that my daughter wouldn’t drink it. She had a fever and was screaming. So gave it to her to drink. Later I mixed toek ta-aek and rambutan leaves into a paste and gave them to her to drink so that she would feel better. Some Islamic people criticized me because I wanted to give her a bath in front of a Muslim’s house when I was pregnant.  Pregnant women were not supposed to take water from barrels – they couldn’t bend over the water well because of their big bellies. They said the way I took a bath with my child was not proper because I spilled water all over the place. But I didn’t care. I was also pregnant at the time.

We received water rations. We put whatever we had in the containers, but were afraid to go to get it ourselves. But I went to the river and carried water on my head to give my child a bath. And then the female cadres saw me. They said don’t go to the river; you might slip, fall in and die. Don’t do that. Please use the water in the barrels. After they told me so, then I didn’t dare use the water because I was so afraid of them.

PA

After you stayed at Prek Pra, you went to another village. What village?

Iep

Sleng. After Sleng, I went to Thlok Koa village. I don’t know the province; maybe Kampong Speu. But I heard on the radio that they now call it Dang Koa.

PA

Do you mean in Phnom Penh?

Iep

Yes. They killed people in that place. There were a lot of mountains.

PA

A mountain?

Iep

Yes, a mountain called Bamboo Bush. [this was probably in Kampong Speu]. They sent me to a new village in the West. They did not let me live in my old village. They made a new village for me. They had me plant vegetables and build a little cottage to live in near the mountain.

PA

So, does that mean you stayed in the new village until the KR collapsed?

Iep

Yes.

PA

[New side of tape, something missing] When I was running to escape from the bombs [what year?], I became separated from my children. They told me to take rice from the pot in the kitchen. I took the rice and I wrapped it. My daughter ran separately from me. I met them in the evening.

Iep

You met your children? Yes. I just kept running like this like that. When the bombing stopped, the people cooked rice. Some people had a cart and were cooking rice on it; I asked them for rice.

PA

Where were you running? In Kampong Speu?

Iep

Yes. It was called Chheu Chhrong, Hang Sam Nam, Champei Chhnang near Aleak Kang Cheung.

PA

In Kampong Speu?

Iep

Over Amlaing. 

PA

When did you come back to your village?

Iep

Me?

PA

Yes. When did you come back?

Iep

After the Khmer Rouge came back and the Vietnamese were coming, I was running and became separated from my children. The sun was shining. It was so hot that I stopped and cooked rice for my children. We just walked and came to Kampong Speu province. When we arrived, we asked rice and salt from other people to cook so that my children could eat. We had a long rest in Kampong Speu, and then walked to Kampong Thom. Oops I meant Phnom Penh, not Kampong Thom. When we reached Phnom Penh, my daughter was so hungry. She saw people selling cakes [num pum] made from coconut. She told me how hungry she was, but I told her I had no rice to trade for cakes.  I told her that when we reached our village in Kampong Thom, we would have enough food to eat. I told my children I would cook for them. When we were walking around in Phnom Penh, we had a comfortable feeling, but were afraid when we walked across Robak Tbeang and Robak Phnom [forests].

It was very hard to live. Everyday many people were killed. I walked to cut stilts for houses. I couldn’t build a house. The Vietnamese were coming into Phnom Penh. Someone told me we should stay here. I replied that we couldn’t stay; I was afraid that the Vietnamese would catch me and arrest me. Someone told me that I should stay here. They said that when it was quiet, I could go and steal materials from storage.

PA

What did you lack in 1979?

Iep

I lacked a lot. In 1979, someone gave materials to me, but I didn’t dare; I was afraid the Vietnamese would catch me. All of my children would become orphans. I just continued walking. As I was walking, I asked people if I could stay with them. In the morning, I saw someone coming with a cart. The police said that my daughter cried a lot. Her eyes were red from crying. When my daughter was walking, she wore Khmer Rouge shoes; they were made from rubber tires. They made her feet become red. My daughter didn’t want to walk any further. She told me to go on without her. I told her she would stay with me.

PA

Do you mean you were still in Phnom Penh?

Iep

Yes. We stayed there because she could not walk. The policeman said we should wait because a cart was coming. You can ride in the cart. When the bicycle cart came, we rode on it. My teenage daughter walked, while my smaller one rode. I walked, too. But my small child said I should come and  ride with her.

PA

Did you walk to Kampong Thom?

Iep

Yes.

PA

Do you mean from Phnom Penh to Kampong Thom?

Iep

Yes. My small daughter said you should come and ride with me. So, the owner of the bicycle cart asked me to ride with her. There were two people walking.  The small child screamed that my older child should ride, too. I told the cart owner that my older child was coming, too. So, the owner stopped and waited to call my older child to ride. But my older child didn’t want to ride until after she had walked for a long time. We crossed the river on a ferry at Prek Kdam. When we took the ferry, the water became rough. My children were afraid because the water was coming onto the deck. An old man came up and held my children so they wouldn’t fall. After we crossed the river, we stayed there. We had no rice to cook, so I asked for some. Someone told me to ask the people in that village, not the leader; they said if I asked the leader, it would take a long time. If I asked the villagers, I would get rice soon.  But I never asked for rice. My god; in my entire life, I only begged for food once. Someone told me not to be shy; be sure to ask the people. Before deciding to ask for rice, I rubbed my nose for good luck, and the people gave me rice. Then I continued walking.

We reached a small store. The wife of the vender knew my husband. They gave me smoked fish and rice and salt.

PA

At this time, had you reached Kampong Thom?

Iep

No, not yet.

PA

Were you still on the road?

Iep

Yes, at Prek Kdam.

PA

When Pol Pot collapsed, how many children did you have?

Iep

There were 5 living with me: Chantha, Bunna, Bunnoir, Bunneav, and Reaksmey

PA

Are all five still alive?

Iep

Yes.

PA

And later, how many other children did you find?

Iep

Later, I met one daughter, Chanthou. She came back to our village.

PA

So, six of your children were still living?

Iep

Yes.

PA

How many females and how many males?

Iep

All females.

PA

And what about the male who went with your husband?

Iep

He disappeared with his father [Vannak]

PA

Was he arrested on the same day?

Iep

I don’t know.

PA

Who disappeared with his father?

Iep

Vannak

PA

What about your husband, Peang Voir? What was his revolutionary name?

Iep

Vong

PA

After the Khmer Rouge collapsed, how do you know your husband died in Tuol Sleng?

Iep

Someone told me.

PA

Who?

Iep

I saw the photo

PA

Who saw the photo?

Iep

The first time, Yeay [grandmother] Pring told me. She had gone to Phnom Penh and she knew my husband well. She saw his photo at Tuol Sleng.

PA

Is she still alive?

Iep

She’s dead. She told me that she saw his photo at Tuol Sleng prison. She said his hands were tied behind his back. The photo showed only his torso.  He was wearing an undershirt.

PA

Was his name on his photo?

Iep

There was no name. But later, uncle Who went there, he saw the name.

PA

Saw it at Tuol Sleng?

Iep

Yes. After Who, a lady named Kim Yi went there and saw her uncle’s photograph. She saw the photo, but said the name on it was Hin Voir, not Peang Voir. But she was the one who wrote the name on the photo.

PA

Was Kim Yi related to Voir?

Iep

Like a niece.

PA

When she saw the photo, she wrote on it?

Iep

Yes; she wrote under the photo. She told me this, but I did not see it myself. She wrote Hin Voir because she didn’t know his name because her father had died when she was two years old; she only knew her mother’s name [she must have used her mother’s family name as her uncle’s name].

After that, my aunt named Hoa saw the photo, too. She said that it was her nephew. She put her kroama in water and cleaned the photo with it. She almost took it off the wall, but the guard saw her and told her not to take it. If the guard hadn’t stopped her, she would have taken it.

PA

So, if you worked hard but found it difficult to live at this time, your husband and children died, how do you feel about our visit?

Iep

I’m so happy. My daughter told me that someone was researching about the Khmer Rouge. I told her that we struggled to live; we lived separately for training in the forest. And we transported material to them.

PA

Do you know that your husband was arrested and died?

Iep

Yes.

PA

My team wants to clarify about your husband. Is he still alive or not?

Iep

He really died. If he were still alive, I would be so happy. I go to the fortune tellers; some say he died, others that he is still alive.

PA

But, what about Kim Yi?

Iep

Me?

PA

No, Kim Yi who saw your husband’s photo at Tuol Sleng.

Iep

Oh, she’s dead now. Someone killed her.

PA

She was killed?

Iep

Yes. At Kampong Svay subdistrict, Kampong Svay district.

PA

How did she die?

Iep

She went to cook. Someone wanted to kill her husband, but he wasn’t there that day. She was at the cornfield. That person hated her husband because he gossiped a lot.

PA

Was this after the Khmer Rouge collapsed?

Iep

Yes. She was killed, but her husband, Leng is still alive.

PA

When you tell your story, do you feel better?

Iep

Yes.