Pivoine

I would like you to tell me your story. Please tell me.

Sokny

I don’t have anything to tell you.

Pivoine

I’m sorry; what is your name?

Sokny

My name is Ny.

Pivoine

What is your family name?

Sokny

Nal Sokny.

Pivoine

Do you have a husband yet?

Sokny

Yes. His name is Samphy.

Pivoine

How many children do you have?

Sokny

Three

Pivoine

When were you born?

Sokny

1975 at Siem Riep province.

Pivoine

Which village?

Sokny

I don’t know.

Pivoine

Please tell me what you remember. What about your story during the regime?

Sokny

I don’t know. My mother told me about it when I was a teenager.

Pivoine

After you were born, what did you do?

Sokny

I don’t know because I was still young.

Pivoine

I asked you because I think you still remember.

Sokny

Of course, I don’t remember; I was with my grandmother,

Pivoine

Where did she live?

Sokny

In this village.

Pivoine

What was your grandmother’s name?

Sokny

Yiep.

Pivoine

When did you live with her?

Sokny

Since I was young.

Pivoine

You said that you know your story from your mother; what did she tell you?

Sokny

She told me about the suffering during the regime. The old ladies looked after me.

Pivoine

Did she tell you whether you were sent anywhere after you were born?

Sokny

No. The old ladies looked after me. I don’t remember any more.

Pivoine

How many siblings do you have?

Sokny

Four; two girls and two boys.

Pivoine

Did your mother tell you about your father?

Sokny

Yes, she did. She told my father loved me very much and that he carried me on his shoulder.

Pivoine

Did she tell you about your father’s position?

Sokny

[no reply]

Pivoine

Do you believe that there was a Khmer Rouge Regime?

Sokny

Yes, I believe there was because I saw it.

Pivoine

Do you want it to happen again?

Sokny

No.

Pivoine

[this is a reluctant witness; Pivoine had to convince her] You said it was hard for you to talk about this. I’d like to ask you. First, you said that you were called to the revolution by Kae Pok. When did you join?

BEGIN HERE

Ros

In 1970. [she was 35]

Pivoine

Where was Kae Pok from?

Ros

He was from the forest.

Pivoine

Which forest?

Ros

Toul Sambour.

Pivoine

When did you meet?

Ros

He came at night.

Pivoine

How did he talk to you?

Ros

He persuaded me to work in the revolution. I didn’t know, so I joined with him.

Pivoine

Where was your husband during the revolution?

Ros

He was with me.

Pivoine

Where were the two of you?

Ros

At Kampong Cham province.

Pivoine

Oh, can you tell me from the start, where did you live?

Ros

At first I was in O’Mlou [Kamong Cham]. In Steung Trang district, Sam Raong subdistrict.

Pivoine

Can you tell me the story of your marriage? How did you know each other?

Ros

He was my relative. He was my second cousin. I called him uncle.

Pivoine

When did you get married?

Ros

Between 1961 and 1962.

Pivoine

Where did you live after you were married?

Ros

I lived here, but my husband was not often here.

Pivoine

What did he study?

Ros

He finished secondary school and then he continued to study.

Pivoine

Where did he continue his studies?

Ros

At Kampong Cham province.

Pivoine

When did your husband go to Phnom Penh to study?

Ros

Before we got married.

Pivoine

Did he take you with him to Phnom Penh?

Ros

Yes, when my cousin got married.

Pivoine

Where?

Ros

At O’Mlou. I transplanted rice and worked on a farm there.

Pivoine

Where did you go first?

Ros

I was in my village. In 1970, I went to join my husband at O’Mlou. I separated from my parents.

Pivoine

Were you pregnant?

Ros

I gave birth to my first child in the year of the dragon.  [1964]

Pivoine

Is this the one who died in Siem Riep province?

Ros

Yes.

Pivoine

What did you do in Siem Riep?

Ros

I wove silk. I wove kroma, like in my picture.

Pivoine

Do you have it now [the scarf]?

Ros

Yes.

Pivoine

What did your husband do at O’Mlou?

Ros

He worked as a combatant.

Pivoine

When did he work as a district chief?

Ros

In 1971.

Pivoine

When did he join the revolution?

Ros

Before we were married.

Pivoine

Did he tell you who called him to the revolution?

Ros

I don’t know.

Pivoine

What was his position?

Ros

He joined with Hu Nim [minister of information and national assembly member in Kampong Cham] and Hou Yuon [national assembly member in Kampong Cham] [see their biographies in the folder]

Pivoine

How did he know them?

Ros

They met during the elections after 1950 [probably 1958]. My uncle Chum Saoun was also a national assembly representative in 1967 during the Sihanouk regime. My husband joined the revolution after he finished secondary school, after 1950. He studied at the same school as Hu Nim and Hou Yuon. They knew each other from the elections. They were living with the teachers and students.

Pivoine

Did Hou Nim call him to the revolution?

Ros

Sihanouk had called the students to go to the forest against Lon Nol. [but this would be 1970 or after]

Pivoine

What did he do after he joined?

Ros

He was a combatant.

Pivoine

Did he fight?

Ros

No. He just sent food to the battlefield.

Pivoine

Which battlefield?

Ros

At Koh Tralach.

Pivoine

Why did he send food there?

Ros

He took it for the soldiers.

Pivoine

Which soldiers?

Ros

The Khmer Rouge. The liberating soldiers.

Pivoine

Did they give him a position?

Ros

Yes. He worked in the commune and each week he went to an assembly meeting at his office.

Pivoine

What did they meet about?

Ros

I don’t remember.

Pivoine

Who attended?

Ros

People who worked with him.

Pivoine

What else did he do in addition to being a combatant?

Ros

They liberated the country.

Pivoine

After Sihanouk collapsed, what did you do?

Ros

In 1970, he worked as a teacher in Steung Trang district in addition to working for the revolution.

Pivoine

What did you do?

Ros

I stayed at home.

Pivoine

When you lived in O’Mlou, what did he do?

Ros

I was at home [he was working as a combatant]

Pivoine

At first you said that in 1973, you cooked at Kulen Mountain; is this true?

Ros

The wives of the Khmer Rouge leaders from Phnom Penh came to the meeting. I don’t remember their names.

Pivoine

How did you prepare for the meeting?

Ros

I prepared the day before. I prepared food for the meeting. I was a cook. I also made clothes for the king.

Pivoine

Did you bring the clothes from your house to the mountain?

Ros

No.

Sarom

How did you prepare them?

Pivoine

They were black clothes. They all wore black clothes, even the King.

Ratana

Did you prepare clothes for any other Khmer Rouge leaders?

Sarom

Yes; they would change their clothes three times each day.  They did this because I gave the clothes to them. They were all the same color.

Ratana

Did you alter the king’s clothes for him before he came?

Sarom

No, I guessed because he had just come from China.

Ratana

After Kulin Mountain, what did you do?

Sarom

Weaving

Ratana

Before, you said you worked as a district chief.

Sarom

Yes, it’s true, but I quit. I gave birth to a child, and then I asked them permission to stop.

Ratana

Did you stop before or after Kulin Mountain?

Sarom

After the meeting.

Ratana

Do you remember the year?

Sarom

1974. After that I wove silk with old ladies and looked after my children.

Ratana

Which children?

Sarom

A son who is still alive.

Ratana

Why did they have you work as a district chief?

Sarom

Because they didn’t have enough people to fill the positions.

Pivoine

What village did you work in?

Sarom

Chbarle village, Sot Nikum district.

Pivoine

When you were the district chief, did you work in your village or did you have to work in another village?

Sarom

I had to work far from my village. I educated villagers. If someone did something wrong, I commented on it.

Pivoine

Did you educate the villagers or the cadres?

Sarom

I worked with the villagers in a poor area.

Pivoine

What did you educate them about?

Ros

I led meetings. I asked the Angkar to give some cotton for the people. They gave me two or three weaving machines.

Ratana

What else did you ask for?

Sarom

I asked for rice and shells. The people were very poor; they had no food or plates.  I also introduced them to weaving silk and I worked in the vegetable farm.

Pivoine

Before you worked in this village, were you trained?

Ros

Yes. They also educated me. They sent a teacher to teach me. My notes were destroyed when the Vietnamese came and I was living in the forest.

Pivoine

How long was your training?

Ros

I don’t remember. It was at Bleng, where soldiers were stationed.

Pivoine

Who taught you?

Ros

Kae Pok. He taught me by himself. And there was another woman who taught me.

Ratana

What was Pok’s position?

Sarom

He was the provincial chief.

Pivoine

Do you remember what they taught you?

Ros

They told the people to work hard. The people who learned with me were from other villages; they did not only work as district chiefs; they were in the Women’s Youth League.

Pivoine

Why did you stop working as the district chief?

Ros

It was difficult for me to live far from my village. As a chief, I also had to work and behave like my members.

Pivoine

How many people were in your workplace?

Ros

50 to 60 people; most of them were old. I led them by myself.

Pivoine

After you resigned, where were you sent?

Ros

To the district and region.

Ratana

Did you take the loom to use for yourself or your members?

Ros

I kept it to use in my home.

Ratana

Did you share with your villagers?

Sarom

Yes; I gave the people clothes, but only those who worked hard. Then I was sent to another place.

Ratana

Did any top leaders ever visit your workplace?

Sarom

Yes; they also came to see the vegetable farm (wax melon, pumpkin and gourd)

Ratana

Did they write about your farm in a magazine?

Sarom

Yes. I don’t know the name, but it had pictures. I didn’t see it, but someone told me about it.

Ratana

When did you work on the farm?

Sarom

Between 1974 and 1975. I worked as a district chief for only one-half year.

Pivoine

Why did you quit?

Ros

No one forced me. It was difficult work and I had to walk very far. I don’t know who was appointed after me.

Pivoine

What about your husband?

Ros

He also worked as a district chief, but he didn’t quit. I worked weaving silk for only two years.

Ratana

When the Khmer Rouge controlled your village in Siem Riep, was the property collectivized?

Ros

At first they did not, but later they did (between 1973 and 1974). Then they used the money to buy things. After that, they were liberated when I was working on the farm.

Ratana

Did you have enough food to eat after liberation?

Ros

Sometimes I did not have enough.

Ratana

Did you live with your husband?

Ros

No. He worked at another place.

Ratana

How many times did you meet?

Ros

[no reply]

Ratana

When he visited you, did he sleep at your house?

Ros

Sometimes. Other times, he just visited with my children. He looked after them.

Ratana

How many children did you have before liberation?

Ros

Three. My oldest children always asked for my husband. He was separated from me in 1975. They wanted him to live with me, but I didn’t agree.

Ratana

Why?

Ros

I was lazy.

Ratana

Between 1975 and 1976, what did you do?

Ros

I still worked on the farm and wove silk. It was easy for me to live far from my husband.

Ratana

Did you hear from him before he was arrested?

Ros

I knew about him from someone who worked with him. They told me after the Khmer Rouge collapsed; they told me he was still alive [this is likely not true, because DC-Cam has his confession]

Ratana

I meant, when was he arrested?

Ros

In 1977. Someone told me that they put him in a sack and dropped him into the river?

Ratana

Why did they do this?

Ros

They accused him of betraying the revolution.

Ratana

How did he betray?

Ros

If someone ran, they could survive, but if they couldn’t run away, they would die.

Ratana

Who accused him?

Ros

Someone from the West Zone. Someone told me that they saw my husband like that [thrown into the river]. Then they arrested me and sent me to prison. The people who saw my husband worked as security guards.

Pivoine

Where was your husband living when he was arrested.

Ros

He was living in Sot Nikum district, where he was the chief.

Pivoine

How did they arrest him?

Ros

They said that Kae Pok took him to the car. When I met him after that, he told me that my husband wasn’t dead.

Pivoine

When did you meet Kae Pok?

Ros

As a security guard, when he arrested me.

Ratana

Did he visit you?

Ros

Yes, and then he released me. And then he sent me to the cooperative.

Ratana

When you heard that your husband had been arrested, were you scared?

Ros

Yes, I was very scared because I thought I would be arrested next.

Ratana

How long after they arrested your husband did they arrest you?

Ros

One month later.

Ratana

Why didn’t you escape?

Ros

I didn’t want to.

Ratana

Do you know the person who arrested you?

Ros

I don’t remember. It was a few soldiers.

Ratana

What did they say when they arrested you?

Ros

They said that Angkar wanted me to move and to meet my husband.

Ratana

Did you believe them?

Ros

I didn’t. I thought that if I went with them, I would die soon.

Ratana

Who else was arrested with you and taken to prison?

Ros

Someone who worked in the Ministry at my office. [what office was this?]

Ratana

How about your children? Were they sent to prison with you?

Ros

[She originally had five children, but one died] The oldest child stayed in the cooperative; two were sent to prison with me, and I was pregnant with the fourth. After I was in prison for one week, I gave birth.

Ratana

Did they interrogate you while you were in prison?

Ros

Yes; they accused me of betraying the revolution.

Ratana

Where did they interrogate you?

Ros

At the security office in Dom Derk village and subdistrict, Sot Ni Kum district, Siem Riep province. When I was in prison, I had no rights. They put me with other people.

Ratana

When did they take you to the prison?

Ros

At night.

Ratana

Did they tie you up?

Ros

No. But they did not allow me to bring any clothes with me. They wanted to kill me, but I was pregnant.

Ratana

How did they interrogate you?

Ros

They accused me of betraying the revolution. I worked for the revolution and I separated from my parents and my home, but they arrested my husband and they arrested me. They told me I was very nasty. They made my children scared; they cried.

Ratana

Did they do a biography of you when they interrogated you, or take your photograph?

Ros

No.

Pivoine

How about your husband’s photographs that are taken with the other women? [the one with three women].

Ros

My husband is on the left. It was taken at my office in Tbleng.  I forgot their names. Some of them were working as medical staff. The photograph was taken before liberation in 1973 or 1974.

Pivoine

When was the photograph taken?

Ros

When he visited my office?

Ratana

Did he give you the photograph after it was taken?

Ros

Yes he did. He was also a photographer.

Pivoine

When did he do this?

Ros

During the Sihanouk regime.

Pivoine

Did he take your picture?

Ros

[she smiles; doesn’t say anything]

Ratana

When you were in prison, what did you do?

Ros

They didn’t give me anything to do. One night, they put me in a car and put me in another place.

Pivoine

Who was this?

Ros

The person who arrested me.

Ratana

What happened when you got there?

Ros

They had me carry earth for the whole day. I also gave birth. A month later, I was sent to the cooperative. Someone who worked there helped me birth the baby. The baby was born in a long cottage. [this conflicts with what she said earlier, that she gave birth while in prison; Pivoine and I think that she did give birth while in prison]

Pivoine

Where was the cooperative?

Ros

Chikreng district in Siem Riep.

Pivoine

Did they send other people from the cooperative with you?

Ros

They sent some.

Pivoine

Why did they release you and not other people?

Ros

I don’t know.

Ratana

After they released you from prison, where did they take you?

Ros

It was the year the Khmer Rouge fell. They sent me to the cooperative. And I met Kae Pok in prison.

Ratana

What did he say to you?

Ros

I asked him about my husband. He said that my husband wasn’t dead. He said my husband had been sent to Steung Treng in Ratanak Kiri province.

Pivoine

Who told you this?

Ros

Both Kae Pok and his friend Kat told me.

Ratana

When did they tell you?

Ros

In 1979, when the Vietnamese came. And then the people went to their villages.

Ratana

When you worked in the cooperative, what did you do?

Ros

They made me carry earth. And the last district chief asked why the Khmer Rouge did this to me. I tried to work hard in the cooperative. I worked on a rice hulling machine.

Ratana

What was the district chief’s name?

Ros

I don’t know, but he was from the West Zone.

Ratana

Why did they help you?

Ros

Because I had just given birth. I didn’t do anything wrong. They asked the villagers about my background.

Ratana

What did they ask the villagers?

Ros

They asked about my husband. I worked there until the Khmer Rouge collapsed.

Ratana

What was the food situation in the cooperative?

Ros

I ate like other people. We ate twice or three times per day. I had rice. I never had porridge. After I finished work, I found fish. They didn’t punish me.

Pivoine

When you worked in the cooperative, did you have a position?

Ros

No, I was a member like other people.

Ratana

Where did you go after the Khmer Rouge regime collapsed?

Ros

I went to Sot Nikum district and took my father in law and my children. I ran from the cooperative. Some other people rode on boats, some rode bicycles, and some on ox carts.

Ratana

Had you heard anything from your husband? Do you think he’s still alive?

Ros

No. I’m not sure. I think about him every day. Sometimes I think that he’s still alive, but he hasn’t come back to my village in all this time. I’m still waiting for him.

Ratana

Was he mean to you?

Ros

He looked after me and took care of me. He was worried that they would take me and I would die.

Ratana

Did you ever have any problems with him?

Ros

No, never.  After the regime collapsed, they gave me a cow and cart. But when I was at Sankor, the Vietnamese took them from me. We no longer had to call the Khmer Rouge Angkar. This was because the Vietnamese told us to stop this. And then the Vietnamese gave the cow and cart back to me after I begged them. I said that I had nothing to do with the Khmer Rouge regime and my husband was arrested, and I have children. I asked them that if they took the cow and cart from me, how would I go to my village? Then the Vietnamese had a few people take me to the road to Kampong Cham.

Ratana

In Siem Riep, did you know the number of your region?

Ros

No.

Ratana

You used to work for the Khmer Rouge regime; how do you feel about it now?

Ros

If someone did something wrong, they would be killed. It was easy to live until the people from the West Zone came to my village in 1977.

Ratana

How was it easy?

Ros

We had enough food to eat. If the people had enough to eat, so did I. We had dried fish and prahok.

Pivoine

Did you tell your story to your children?

Ros

I don’t tell them.

Ratana

Why not?

Ros

If I told them, they still wouldn’t remember. I told them about the bombs, but they didn’t believe me.

Ratana

Which do you think was better for you, the Lon Nol or Khmer Rouge regime?

Ros

If people were rich during the Lon Nol regime, it was good for them, but it was bad if you were poor.

Ratana

Which was better for you?

Ros

I could not live with my parents during the Khmer Rouge. I worked hard. No one was rich or poor.

Pivoine

What about the problem with the canal (see interview with the son)?

Ros

Yes, they did.

Pivoine

Where did they kill people?

Ros

At Som Rong village, Tar Kreut subdistrict in Prey Chor district, Kampong Cham.

Pivoine

Is the canal still at this village?

Ros

When the Vietnamese came, the Khmer Rouge wanted the people to escape to the mass grave. But the people didn’t go there because they knew that the Khmer Rouge wanted to kill them. So the Khmer Rouge ran to the forest. It was very difficult to live in Kampong Cham; there wasn’t enough food to eat. We had rice, bananas and corn. If I had come from Siem Riep to Kampong Cham before, I would have died. My son was very hungry and I felt very sorry for him.

Pivoine

Did your husband take this photograph with you?

Ros

Yes. It was taken after we were married.

Pivoine

Where was it taken?

Ros

At Toul Trabaik in Kampong Cham.

Pivoine

Why weren’t you in the picture with the other women.

Ros

They tried to persuade me, but I wouldn’t. It was taken behind our house in Siem Riep.

Pivoine

Did you keep your photographs during the regime?

Ros

No.

Pivoine

Did you have a lot of photographs?

Ros

Yes, but they are gone. Someone took them from me.

Ratana

When were they taken?

Ros

Before the Vietnamese came.

Pivoine

Who took them?

Ros

The district chief from the West Zone.

Ratana

After the regime collapsed, did you ever hear from your husband?

Ros

Yes, his friend told me, but I don’t know if it was the truth.

Pivoine

Did you ever consult a fortune teller?

Ros

Yes, a long time ago. They said that my husband was still alive. They said I wouldn’t be able to see my husband until the Khmer Rouge had reconciled.

Ratana

Do you remember when they took your biography?

Ros

In 1973 and 1975.

Pivoine

Can you tell us anything else?

Ros

In 1974, they invited my husband to study in France, but we didn’t go. They gave us a month to decide. But if we had gone, we would have been separated from our child. They only allowed people with less than two children to go.

Ratana

Did you ask your parents’ permission to go?

Ros

No, I was living in Siem Riep and they were in Kampong Cham.  I said he could go, but he said he wouldn’t go if I didn’t.

I know a lady. After they took her husband to kill him, they made her eat parts of his body.

Pivoine

How do you know this?

Ros

We were in prison together. She told me she refused to eat her husband.

Ratana

How did she know her husband was made into food?

Ros

They killed and cooked him near her.

Pivoine

What happened to her when she refused to eat him?

Ros

They shot her.

Ratana

Why did they do this to her husband?

Ros

Because he was a teacher. They also arrested a lot of people and tied them up near the stupa.

Ratana

When did they kill them?

Ros

Between 1977 and 1978 when the West Zone came.

Pivoine

What was it like right after liberation?

Ros

They didn’t begin killing people until 1977 in Kampong Cham. I didn’t have the same accent as people from Siem Riep, and they knew that. When they saw I was from Kampong Cham, they helped me keep it secret because he helped and looked after the people, and treated them when they were sick. He also gave them clothes.

Pivoine

Did he study medicine?

Ros

Yes, he studied at Kampong Cham province. When someone was sick, my husband would buy medicine for them.

But when I was in charge [district chief], they staged a strike. They wanted to take me and kill me. They brought an elephant to arrest me, but the villagers helped me. The Khmer Ser [enemies of the Khmer Rouge] wanted to kill me.

Ratana

How often did the Khmer Ser come to your village.

Ros

Two or three times. In 1973, my husband and I were in the forest. If the Khmer Ser had arrested me, they might have killed me. They also wore black clothes like the Khmer Rouge.

Ratana

How did they come?

Ros

If they arrested people, they killed them, like the people who worked in the revolution. When they came, they came in big groups. The Khmer Ser didn’t want the people to share their property with Angkar. Before I joined the revolution, Kae Pok tried to persuade me. I refused the first time because I was helping my parents, and already helping my husband, who was working in the revolution.  I didn’t see why I needed to join. But he kept trying. In 1973, Kae Pok built me a house. He said that he wanted me to devote everything to the revolution.

The first time I did this, I was very sorry. I had also given them my gold.

Ratana

What else can you tell me?

Ros

Kae Pok always went to my house at 4 in the morning and took a bath. He left at 5 am.

Ratana

Did your husband want you to join the revolution?

Ros

No. He was scared of the Khmer Rouge.

Pivoine

Where was Kae Pok from?

Ros

From the forest. He also brought my husband in to the revolution. When I was in prison, I asked Kae Pok about my husband. He swore to me that my husband was still alive. When I was arrested, they said my husband and I had betrayed the revolution. In 1977, they arrested my husband. They told him they would send him to Rattanak Kiri or Mondul Kiri.

Pivoine

Where did Pok come from and how did he meet you?

Ros

He came from Siem Riep. He persuaded me to join the revolution. I knew him at my village.

Nal Sokin (the son) went to live with his grandmother in Kampong Cham between 1973 and 1974. He wanted to return to live with us in Siem Riep, but the Khmer Rouge had come by then. My son worked very hard. Then my husband was arrested and I gave birth to my child in prison. Four months after they arrested my husband, they arrested me. I gave birth to my child in the prison. I also carried earth in prison, but we were unable to move about freely. If someone walked somewhere without permission, they were killed.

After my husband finished secondary school in 1970, he studied law in Phnom Penh. Then he became a teacher. I went to live with him at O’Mlou in 1970.

I met Nuon Chea at Kulen mountain, but I was too afraid to talk to him.

My son who died was ill with a fever.